Degradation of important keris over time

jagabuwana · 15th June 2022, 07:56 AM

In Keris cultures, my understanding is that important keris are ritually cleaned periodically by their caretakers.

Over time this leads to degradation of the keris itself.

The keris is a physical object with metaphysical content and meaning - both of which make up its importance.

So when its physical aspect is degraded over time, at what point is it deemed "too" degraded?

Assuming that it is very inappropriate to simply discard it, what is done with the material that is left?

Finally, what is understood to be happening at the metaphysical level when the keris, the shrine, is degraded over time like this? e.g. does it reduce its potency as a shrine or conduit to ancestors and previous custodians?

milandro · 15th June 2022, 04:57 PM

I am not sure of the veridicality of many supposed finds of krises in rivers (I have seen several videos showing krises very very corroded rescued from the bottom of bodies of water) or in the forest but apparently “ burying “ a kris in water or earth is a way to deal with a kris that is no longer performing his function.

Anyway, most of these videos are in Indonesian ( and difficult to find back, to me)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiWh4Y_AHq4

Bear in mind that the kris has become an industry in Indonesia and that “ old” or supposed to be old, pieces are sold at a premium there ...so there may be the temptation to make “ antiques “ and find them...

check this video search on Youtube for " Keris Metal detector “....lots and lots...

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...metal+detector

Anthony G. · 16th June 2022, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

In Keris cultures, my understanding is that important keris are ritually cleaned periodically by their caretakers.

Over time this leads to degradation of the keris itself.

The keris is a physical object with metaphysical content and meaning - both of which make up its importance.

So when its physical aspect is degraded over time, at what point is it deemed "too" degraded?

Assuming that it is very inappropriate to simply discard it, what is done with the material that is left?

Finally, what is understood to be happening at the metaphysical level when the keris, the shrine, is degraded over time like this? e.g. does it reduce its potency as a shrine or conduit to ancestors and previous custodians?

From my own limited experience and discussions with other local native senior collectors in the past,

actually depends on the area where the keris are from; the Bugis and Balinese keris despite being old, are still in healthy condition and I suppose it is due to the less aggressive yearly 'washing' of the bilah compare to mainland Java. Unwanted, damaged or bad keris are thrown into the river or buried. I suppose attached sample of photo is consider 'washed out'.

To the local natives, keris hold a significant spiritual values other than just a weapon.

I was also told that in ancient time, Buddhists do not destroy Buddha statues and if needed so, the statue are buried in the sand instead, out of respect.

In modern day, I came to know there are locals who took from the graves etc for old keris metal and recycle it to use to forge new keris. Not sure why. One of my Java keris is forged from old keris steel.

milandro · 16th June 2022, 10:05 AM

I have seen also many videos on youtube of supposedly “ rescued” krises (with metal showing a lot of corrosion) being offerend on Pasars by Kris dealers.

I have my serious doubts that there are so many krises which are found in the ground or waters. This is obviously an industry for many people .

Anthony G. · 16th June 2022, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

I have seen also many videos on youtube of supposedly “ rescued” krises (with metal showing a lot of corrosion) being offerend on Pasars by Kris dealers.

I have my serious doubts that there are so many krises which are found in the ground or waters. This is obviously an industry for many people .

Once I came across a photo which i was asked not to show it to anyone. It was show to me by a trusted friend. In the photo, inside this small hut where there are at least hundreds of rusty old keris bilah without dress waiting to be 'recycle'. I have no idea where they get it thou.

milandro · 16th June 2022, 10:15 AM

if you care to follow the second link to the videos I gave above , you’ll se (predominately Malaysian videos) showing people digging a lot of stuff from the ground.

Also I see videos , especially from this channel called Ethnic Indonesia , where the owner of this shop (I suppose) goes to many markets and examines artifacts some of which are obviously very corroded.

This is one of the countless videos he has on line

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCEvNfBXNSM

Unfortunately I don ’t understand anything

A. G. Maisey · 16th June 2022, 02:09 PM

Jaga asked a couple of questions that in the asking might seem to be reasonably straight forward, but in the answering become impossible.

Not all keris are equal.

The belief systems, in which the keris exists as a general idea, vary.

The cultures & societies in which the keris as a physical object can be found do not have a consistency that will permit one all inclusive understanding.

This is one of the reasons why I have very little interest in keris belief systems that have arisen in places other than Jawa & Bali.

Even when our consideration is narrowed to just these two places we find that the general beliefs attached to the keris in these two places vary considerably. In one place, Jawa, we need to consider at least two very broad sets of parameters, one that is applicable to Jawa prior to the incursion of Islam, & in particular the influence of Sufic ideas, and a different set of parameters that has developed under Islam.

If we then consider Bali we find that there is the division of the pre-Puputan paradigm and the post-Puputan paradigm.

We find varying understandings in both Bali & Jawa according to both time and precise geographic location.

I would liken this situation as being on the outside of a house with many rooms, we can wander around the house and look in through the windows, and at any one time, in any one room, we can see people doing things and hear them discussing things, but what we see and hear lacks an overall consistency, depending upon what time of day it might be and what window we are looking through.

Now, if we are fortunate enough to find an open door that permits us to enter one of these rooms, we might be able to engage with some of the people in the room, and when we do, we might find that what we thought we understood when we were standing outside looking in through the window, was not at all relevant to the ideas of the inhabitants of that room.

I am inclined to totally disregard the jiggery-pokery associated with markets, commercialism and spurious claims. All this sort of thing has precious little to do with the socio-cultural paradigm in which the keris exists for those who are educated in the belief systems which support the keris.

Accordingly, for me, there is no one way of defining the understandings of culturally aware people when those people consider the being of any one specific keris in any part of time/space.

The only rational answer is that everything will always vary.

15th June 2022, 07:56 AM	#1
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 281	Degradation of important keris over time In Keris cultures, my understanding is that important keris are ritually cleaned periodically by their caretakers. Over time this leads to degradation of the keris itself. The keris is a physical object with metaphysical content and meaning - both of which make up its importance. So when its physical aspect is degraded over time, at what point is it deemed "too" degraded? Assuming that it is very inappropriate to simply discard it, what is done with the material that is left? Finally, what is understood to be happening at the metaphysical level when the keris, the shrine, is degraded over time like this? e.g. does it reduce its potency as a shrine or conduit to ancestors and previous custodians?

15th June 2022, 04:57 PM	#2
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 474	I am not sure of the veridicality of many supposed finds of krises in rivers (I have seen several videos showing krises very very corroded rescued from the bottom of bodies of water) or in the forest but apparently “ burying “ a kris in water or earth is a way to deal with a kris that is no longer performing his function. Anyway, most of these videos are in Indonesian ( and difficult to find back, to me) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiWh4Y_AHq4 Bear in mind that the kris has become an industry in Indonesia and that “ old” or supposed to be old, pieces are sold at a premium there ...so there may be the temptation to make “ antiques “ and find them... check this video search on Youtube for " Keris Metal detector “....lots and lots... https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...metal+detector

16th June 2022, 10:05 AM	#4
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 474	I have seen also many videos on youtube of supposedly “ rescued” krises (with metal showing a lot of corrosion) being offerend on Pasars by Kris dealers. I have my serious doubts that there are so many krises which are found in the ground or waters. This is obviously an industry for many people .

16th June 2022, 10:15 AM	#6
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 474	if you care to follow the second link to the videos I gave above , you’ll se (predominately Malaysian videos) showing people digging a lot of stuff from the ground. Also I see videos , especially from this channel called Ethnic Indonesia , where the owner of this shop (I suppose) goes to many markets and examines artifacts some of which are obviously very corroded. This is one of the countless videos he has on line https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCEvNfBXNSM Unfortunately I don ’t understand anything

16th June 2022, 02:09 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Jaga asked a couple of questions that in the asking might seem to be reasonably straight forward, but in the answering become impossible. Not all keris are equal. The belief systems, in which the keris exists as a general idea, vary. The cultures & societies in which the keris as a physical object can be found do not have a consistency that will permit one all inclusive understanding. This is one of the reasons why I have very little interest in keris belief systems that have arisen in places other than Jawa & Bali. Even when our consideration is narrowed to just these two places we find that the general beliefs attached to the keris in these two places vary considerably. In one place, Jawa, we need to consider at least two very broad sets of parameters, one that is applicable to Jawa prior to the incursion of Islam, & in particular the influence of Sufic ideas, and a different set of parameters that has developed under Islam. If we then consider Bali we find that there is the division of the pre-Puputan paradigm and the post-Puputan paradigm. We find varying understandings in both Bali & Jawa according to both time and precise geographic location. I would liken this situation as being on the outside of a house with many rooms, we can wander around the house and look in through the windows, and at any one time, in any one room, we can see people doing things and hear them discussing things, but what we see and hear lacks an overall consistency, depending upon what time of day it might be and what window we are looking through. Now, if we are fortunate enough to find an open door that permits us to enter one of these rooms, we might be able to engage with some of the people in the room, and when we do, we might find that what we thought we understood when we were standing outside looking in through the window, was not at all relevant to the ideas of the inhabitants of that room. I am inclined to totally disregard the jiggery-pokery associated with markets, commercialism and spurious claims. All this sort of thing has precious little to do with the socio-cultural paradigm in which the keris exists for those who are educated in the belief systems which support the keris. Accordingly, for me, there is no one way of defining the understandings of culturally aware people when those people consider the being of any one specific keris in any part of time/space. The only rational answer is that everything will always vary.