Keris Betok?

rizramon · 28th December 2005, 03:11 PM

Hi can anyone describe my keris. Refer to "Ensklopedia Keris" - look like keris betok & can describe the pamor.For my keris madura hulu - what does it simbolise? Both keris i bought capture my heart.Thanks

nechesh · 28th December 2005, 03:25 PM

Welcome rizramon. IMHO, both these keris are rather new creations. The keris buda or betok looks like it has been artificially aged to give the appearance of antiquity.
You haven't provided a very good angle of view on the ukiran of your keris madura, but it looks like it might be some representation of a wayang character. Pamors are not my strong point, but this one appears to be a variation of golden rain, a fairly popular pamor used on new keris, perhaps because actual old examples of it are not too easy to find.

Mans · 28th December 2005, 07:32 PM

Hi Rizramon,
I agree with Nechesh that your keris is a new made.

1st keris called Bethok Budha.
It is a new keris, but processed with chemical in order to look as an aged keris.
The pamor called Kulit Semongko (WaterMelon skin), but actually difficult to described it. The pamor was worn-down because chemical processing.
For comparison : http://gallerykeris.fotopic.net/c791072.html (it is a processing keris Jalak Budha).

2nd keris is a quite new keris too. It has the pamor Udan Mas (Golden Rain). Nechesh is right. Very difficult to found the Old keris with pamor Udan Mas. If we found it, we must spend much money to get it. So that why many kerismaker producted the new keris with pamor Udan Mas. (Most wanted pamor

)
Unfortunately, you didn't add the overall pics. I don't know how many luk (waves) it has. So that the dapur can't described.
For comparison : http://keris.fotopic.net/c750780.html (it is an Old Keris with pamor Udan Mas. Estimated made from Tuban period - about 17th-18th century).

The Hulu/Hilt (Jawa = Deder/Ukiran), it has the Dragon (Naga) carved and the figure on Wayang (Puppets) story. At Jawa, the Dragon can be symbolized as guardian, protector, guard. But, I don't know the figure of Wayang on this Deder.

Sorry if any mistake.

Rgds,
Mans.

Henk · 29th December 2005, 09:45 AM

Welcome to the forum Rizramon,

Nechesh and Mans are completely right. Both very new keris. The betok is just a fake for the ignorant tourist. The second one is new and definitely made for the touristmarket. Especially the scabbard has nothing to do with a maduran scabbard. But the udan mas pamor comes out very good.

For a beginning collector certainly not a bad buy (I hope you didn't payed to much). Now you have to find a real, no, let I say an authentic keris. Than you can go expanding your collection and compare offered keris weather they are old and original or not. But the way is long and full with traps.

rizramon · 29th December 2005, 01:51 PM

Hi guys , these are detail pic of my madura hulu.Well im a beginner so need u guys info.For the madura I love the craving & the pamor.For the betok...well i just keep it for my collection.

nechesh · 29th December 2005, 06:03 PM

Henk, i know similar discussions have taken place before, but why on Earth would you not consider the Madura keris "authentic"? The sheath carving certainly has little to do with traditional style Madurese wrongko of the, say. 19thC, but this style of carving IS very much in Madurese and i would accept it as a tradition piece for the late 20thC. I certainly wouldn't brand this a "tourist keris", it's just not an "old" keris. It is a decently executed blade, certainly not tourist junk. It is a modern keris for the modern keris collector. Why should we have to wait another hunderd years to accept that (you know....when it becomes old).

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28th December 2005, 03:11 PM	#1
rizramon Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 6	Keris Betok? Hi can anyone describe my keris. Refer to "Ensklopedia Keris" - look like keris betok & can describe the pamor.For my keris madura hulu - what does it simbolise? Both keris i bought capture my heart.Thanks Attached Images

29th December 2005, 01:51 PM	#5
rizramon Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 6	Madura's hulu Hi guys , these are detail pic of my madura hulu.Well im a beginner so need u guys info.For the madura I love the craving & the pamor.For the betok...well i just keep it for my collection. Attached Images

28th December 2005, 03:25 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Welcome rizramon. IMHO, both these keris are rather new creations. The keris buda or betok looks like it has been artificially aged to give the appearance of antiquity. You haven't provided a very good angle of view on the ukiran of your keris madura, but it looks like it might be some representation of a wayang character. Pamors are not my strong point, but this one appears to be a variation of golden rain, a fairly popular pamor used on new keris, perhaps because actual old examples of it are not too easy to find.

28th December 2005, 07:32 PM	#3
Mans Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Java Posts: 137	Hi Rizramon, I agree with Nechesh that your keris is a new made. 1st keris called Bethok Budha. It is a new keris, but processed with chemical in order to look as an aged keris. The pamor called Kulit Semongko (WaterMelon skin), but actually difficult to described it. The pamor was worn-down because chemical processing. For comparison : http://gallerykeris.fotopic.net/c791072.html (it is a processing keris Jalak Budha). 2nd keris is a quite new keris too. It has the pamor Udan Mas (Golden Rain). Nechesh is right. Very difficult to found the Old keris with pamor Udan Mas. If we found it, we must spend much money to get it. So that why many kerismaker producted the new keris with pamor Udan Mas. (Most wanted pamor ) Unfortunately, you didn't add the overall pics. I don't know how many luk (waves) it has. So that the dapur can't described. For comparison : http://keris.fotopic.net/c750780.html (it is an Old Keris with pamor Udan Mas. Estimated made from Tuban period - about 17th-18th century). The Hulu/Hilt (Jawa = Deder/Ukiran), it has the Dragon (Naga) carved and the figure on Wayang (Puppets) story. At Jawa, the Dragon can be symbolized as guardian, protector, guard. But, I don't know the figure of Wayang on this Deder. Sorry if any mistake. Rgds, Mans.

29th December 2005, 09:45 AM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Welcome to the forum Rizramon, Nechesh and Mans are completely right. Both very new keris. The betok is just a fake for the ignorant tourist. The second one is new and definitely made for the touristmarket. Especially the scabbard has nothing to do with a maduran scabbard. But the udan mas pamor comes out very good. For a beginning collector certainly not a bad buy (I hope you didn't payed to much). Now you have to find a real, no, let I say an authentic keris. Than you can go expanding your collection and compare offered keris weather they are old and original or not. But the way is long and full with traps.

29th December 2005, 06:03 PM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Henk, i know similar discussions have taken place before, but why on Earth would you not consider the Madura keris "authentic"? The sheath carving certainly has little to do with traditional style Madurese wrongko of the, say. 19thC, but this style of carving IS very much in Madurese and i would accept it as a tradition piece for the late 20thC. I certainly wouldn't brand this a "tourist keris", it's just not an "old" keris. It is a decently executed blade, certainly not tourist junk. It is a modern keris for the modern keris collector. Why should we have to wait another hunderd years to accept that (you know....when it becomes old).