Keris help for the uninitiated please

Atlantia · 9th February 2010, 01:10 AM

Hello Keris forum.
Firstly let me say that this is a bit of a departure for me as I have virtually no knowledge of these things.

This Keris belongs to a dear friend of mine and I have told him that I will try and help him research it by asking you (the experts) about it.
In my very limited experience, it is rather long with a 23.5" blade.
Please, any information gladly and gratefully received.

Sorry, let me just add that you will have to keep it simple for me, I'm not familiar with the terminology of these articles.

kai · 9th February 2010, 01:56 AM

Hello Gene,

That's a Keris Panjang (a search will bring up tons of info) with a nice Sumatran blade.

Here's a thread which discusses the use of the Jawa Deman hilt with this type of keris. I'd guess that this example also comes from the Melakka Strait area, probably Riau.

Regards,
Kai

Gavin Nugent · 9th February 2010, 03:24 AM

Nice piece Gene,

I too am enjoying the learning of these blades, very interesting regions and very interesting pieces..

Is the dorsal peak still present on the hilt? The image angle does not seem to show it. Also, I do not know if it just a camera flash or something but it seems like there is a white plug in the base of the blade???

Gav

Atlantia · 9th February 2010, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Nice piece Gene,

I too am enjoying the learning of these blades, very interesting regions and very interesting pieces..

Is the dorsal peak still present on the hilt? The image angle does not seem to show it. Also, I do not know if it just a camera flash or something but it seems like there is a white plug in the base of the blade???

Gav

Hi Gav,

Yeah, its a good thing for sure, nice slender blade!
He didn't leave it with me, but as far as I can remember there is no dorsal peak on the head. The blade has had some brasso used on it at some stage, which has collected in the crevaces on the upper part of the blade and especially in that circular indentation that you cas see.

Thanks
Gene

David · 10th February 2010, 12:14 AM

Well, i'd tell your friend to stop using Brasso on his blade.

Panjang at know, yes, for it's long length, but also for this particular style of features. These are indeed the blades that are referred to as "executioner keris", but this does not mean that this or any other pajang you see was necessarily used in that manner. AFAIK the panjang is a status keris so perhaps those who had the status to wear them also had the authority to execute. Maybe someone can clear that up for us.
Jawa Deman roughly means the fevered Javanese and is a reference to what appears to be a representation of a figure, perhaps double over in illness. I am not convinced that this hilt was ever intended to represent Garuda, though i have heard it referred to as such.
Your friend's seems to have some age to it and while i think it's pretty impossible to put and actual age on this i'd say that it is probably late 19th - early 20th century.

Atlantia · 10th February 2010, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, i'd tell your friend to stop using Brasso on his blade.

Panjang at know, yes, for it's long length, but also for this particular style of features. These are indeed the blades that are referred to as "executioner keris", but this does not mean that this or any other pajang you see was necessarily used in that manner. AFAIK the panjang is a status keris so perhaps those who had the status to wear them also had the authority to execute. Maybe someone can clear that up for us.
Jawa Deman roughly means the fevered Javanese and is a reference to what appears to be a representation of a figure, perhaps double over in illness. I am not convinced that this hilt was ever intended to represent Garuda, though i have heard it referred to as such.
Your friend's seems to have some age to it and while i think it's pretty impossible to put and actual age on this i'd say that it is probably late 19th - early 20th century.

LOL, He's only just bought it, thankfully he knows better than that. Brasso, the curse of the 1970s for anything made of metal!
Thanks for all the extra info.

Atlantia · 9th February 2010, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Gene,

That's a Keris Panjang (a search will bring up tons of info) with a nice Sumatran blade.

Here's a thread which discusses the use of the Jawa Deman hilt with this type of keris. I'd guess that this example also comes from the Melakka Strait area, probably Riau.

Regards,
Kai

Hi Kai,
Thanks for helping. I'm completely unfamiliar with the subtlety and terminology of these weapons.
So I might be about to ask some 'obvious' questions

Right, so this type of Garuda hilt is called a 'Jawa Deman'?
What does that mean?
The abnormally long blade makes it a 'panjang'?
Are they just for show, for executions, or genuine weapons?
And it was made in Riau!

Any way of determining age of the blade?

Many Thanks
Gene

BluErf · 10th February 2010, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Gene,

That's a Keris Panjang (a search will bring up tons of info) with a nice Sumatran blade.

Here's a thread which discusses the use of the Jawa Deman hilt with this type of keris. I'd guess that this example also comes from the Melakka Strait area, probably Riau.

Regards,
Kai

This is a very nice specimen... Again, wonder about the jawa demam hilt on a panjang. We just see so many of these, but it runs against this mental picture I have of panjangs with the lanky hilt types (tapak kuda and the others)... I don't know, we hardly see any state keris level kind of panjangs with jawa demam hilts?

Anyhow, this panjang does have a Riau-ish feel, but maybe not quite. The blade reminds me of my panjang from Melaka, though the sheath is just a simple sari bulan (cresent moon), not like this with the clipped daun ends (the 2 protruding ends at the top of sheath).

kulbuntet · 10th February 2010, 08:59 PM

Hello all,

The term keris Panjang as beeing a executioner keris, is bit overrated...only few real execution known by using that weapon sort..It just means long keris.

The intention of making the longer keris types is a reaction on the portugese with their rapiers. Some even call the longer keris rapier keris. It is hold in hand same like other keris, but in technique bit difrent. I even seen a photo of a batak sjamaan holding a keris panjang. i dont know if there is a link between a bahari keris and panjang, and there is an other longer version of keris. But i cant recall the name, its bit linked to bahari keris, maybe one of the other know of what name im talking about..

regards

BluErf · 11th February 2010, 02:01 PM

I thought the rapier explanation was a myth?

I don't think the keris panjang was meant to be an execution tool first and foremost. I think the keris panjang is a symbol of authority, much like the sceptre in the European context. The keris panjang is as likely to be used in a fight as a king's sceptre is used in combat, I believe.

BluErf · 11th February 2010, 02:03 PM

Btw, I checked with Dave, and he thinks this keris panjang is definitely peninsula, due to the embellishment on the sheath, and the squarish buntut. However, it is quite difficult to tell which Malayan state it came from, though kelantan and Terengganu are possible candidates.

David · 11th February 2010, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

I thought the rapier explanation was a myth?

I don't think the keris panjang was meant to be an execution tool first and foremost. I think the keris panjang is a symbol of authority, much like the sceptre in the European context. The keris panjang is as likely to be used in a fight as a king's sceptre is used in combat, I believe.

I have also heard the rapier theory is not all that plausible. Certainly, it is just a theory, so i don't think we can definitively say exactly why the blade is longer. But given the short pesi on the keris there is no way that a panjang could be effectively used against a rapier in a fight. My leanings are with Kai Wee on this as to it being a symbol of authority which is why it would be the choice of weapon for execution (and that the length makes it effective for that purpose with the method that is used). I do agree that to call it an "executioners keris" is probably as incorrect as calling a "keris sajen" a "keris majapahit", but there does seem to be enough historical reference to say that these were indeed used in this manner at times.

9th February 2010, 01:10 AM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Keris help for the uninitiated please Hello Keris forum. Firstly let me say that this is a bit of a departure for me as I have virtually no knowledge of these things. This Keris belongs to a dear friend of mine and I have told him that I will try and help him research it by asking you (the experts) about it. In my very limited experience, it is rather long with a 23.5" blade. Please, any information gladly and gratefully received. Sorry, let me just add that you will have to keep it simple for me, I'm not familiar with the terminology of these articles.

9th February 2010, 03:24 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Nice piece Nice piece Gene, I too am enjoying the learning of these blades, very interesting regions and very interesting pieces.. Is the dorsal peak still present on the hilt? The image angle does not seem to show it. Also, I do not know if it just a camera flash or something but it seems like there is a white plug in the base of the blade??? Gav

9th February 2010, 01:56 AM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Gene, That's a Keris Panjang (a search will bring up tons of info) with a nice Sumatran blade. Here's a thread which discusses the use of the Jawa Deman hilt with this type of keris. I'd guess that this example also comes from the Melakka Strait area, probably Riau. Regards, Kai

10th February 2010, 12:14 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Well, i'd tell your friend to stop using Brasso on his blade. Panjang at know, yes, for it's long length, but also for this particular style of features. These are indeed the blades that are referred to as "executioner keris", but this does not mean that this or any other pajang you see was necessarily used in that manner. AFAIK the panjang is a status keris so perhaps those who had the status to wear them also had the authority to execute. Maybe someone can clear that up for us. Jawa Deman roughly means the fevered Javanese and is a reference to what appears to be a representation of a figure, perhaps double over in illness. I am not convinced that this hilt was ever intended to represent Garuda, though i have heard it referred to as such. Your friend's seems to have some age to it and while i think it's pretty impossible to put and actual age on this i'd say that it is probably late 19th - early 20th century.

10th February 2010, 08:59 PM	#9
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Hello all, The term keris Panjang as beeing a executioner keris, is bit overrated...only few real execution known by using that weapon sort..It just means long keris. The intention of making the longer keris types is a reaction on the portugese with their rapiers. Some even call the longer keris rapier keris. It is hold in hand same like other keris, but in technique bit difrent. I even seen a photo of a batak sjamaan holding a keris panjang. i dont know if there is a link between a bahari keris and panjang, and there is an other longer version of keris. But i cant recall the name, its bit linked to bahari keris, maybe one of the other know of what name im talking about.. regards

11th February 2010, 02:01 PM	#10
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I thought the rapier explanation was a myth? I don't think the keris panjang was meant to be an execution tool first and foremost. I think the keris panjang is a symbol of authority, much like the sceptre in the European context. The keris panjang is as likely to be used in a fight as a king's sceptre is used in combat, I believe.

11th February 2010, 02:03 PM	#11
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Btw, I checked with Dave, and he thinks this keris panjang is definitely peninsula, due to the embellishment on the sheath, and the squarish buntut. However, it is quite difficult to tell which Malayan state it came from, though kelantan and Terengganu are possible candidates.