Weapons of the Chinese Green Standard Army

Peter Dekker · 3rd May 2017, 02:04 PM

Hi guys,

I just finished an infographic on edged weapons used by the Qing danasty Green Standard Army that will accompany an article in my site.

It is based on the information from the 1766 woodblock edition of the Huanchao Liqi Tushi, a work commissioned by the Qianlong emperor. The book covers court regulations on all sorts of items, including weapons. It was based on a manuscript of 1759.

In my drawing I kept true to the original sizes, including shaft diameters and blade widths mentioned in the text. I also reproduced the colors, as mentioned in the original text.

To the left a silhouette of a man I made 175cm (5 foot 7) for size comparison. Next to him is a standard pattern military saber or yaodao / peidao, of the same period, also for comparison.

I hope you like it. Any comments / questions welcome!

Oliver Pinchot · 3rd May 2017, 06:31 PM

Well done, Peter!
Nice meeting you in Baltimore

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd May 2017, 07:10 PM

Salaams Peter Dekker This is an excellent work and perfect for library....as well as for beginners on these weapons like me!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Philip · 4th May 2017, 06:07 AM

A much-needed ID and classification scheme, having it illustrated to scale makes it that much more useful. Looking forward to the addition of some descriptive details as your study progresses. For instance, I'm curious as to the essential characteristics of the BEIDAO or "back" saber. Does it refer to the thickness or particular profile of its spine (we're familiar with the term ZHIBEIDAO or "straight-back saber" which refers to a straight single-edged blade as seen on the familiar Tibetan sword). Or was its sheath meant to be worn at the belt, across the small of the user's back so that the hilt could be drawn from behind with the right hand? I've seen some late 18th/early 19th cent. graphics by Western artists in China, showing just such an arrangement with a somewhat short, cutlass-like weapon.

Peter Dekker · 4th May 2017, 10:11 PM

Thanks for the encouragements!

I had wondered the same about the beidao. It could well refer to the way it was carried because names like yaodao, peidao "waist sabers" and daidao "belt sabers" all refer to the way they are carried.

I've checked more in-depth regulations for these arms and it seems the beidao's blade is fairly substantial for it's size: 10mm thick at the base.

Both the standard yaodao the wodao (better known as "miaodao") and the changren dadao are only 7mm thick. All the other weapons in the diagram are also 10mm thick at the base of their blades.

Interestingly, the yanyuedao is not covered in these minutely detailed regulations but they are on lists of equipment ordered and maintained periodically. This means units had considerable freedom in the execution of this weapon, which may help explain why they tend to vary so much in size and shape.

Philip · 7th May 2017, 02:38 AM

From empirical observation, I note that most blades from the late Ming to mid-Qing seem to hover between 6 - 7 mm thickness at the forte (not counting the tunkou or sleeve at the base of some of them). This is assuming that they haven't been polished or ground down to remove deep pitting sometime in the past as is the case with a lot of stuff coming onto the market.

Forte thicknesses in this range seem to be prevalent in a large number of other types of cut-and-thrust blades as well. We could chalk up this surprising consistency to functional parameters -- given a specific material (steel), a set of functional parameters (such as point of balance, rigidity, resilience and the need to absorb lateral stresses especially near the hilt), one could expect an optimum in terms of distal dimensions at the forte which different cultures.

Thicknesses would tend to increase if more rigidity and stability were needed for longer weapons, or if there were other requirements for weight distribution in shorter ones. Re the latter, we've both observed a particular pattern of later (early 19th) Qing military sabers which are around 9-10 mm thick at the forte, as are some civilian "ox-tail" sabers. There are some shorter Indian talwars which have similar distal dimensions. This would call out for a deeper look at the fencing techniques and deployment situations for these particular weapons to explain their design characteristics since their distal profile .

3rd May 2017, 02:04 PM	#1
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 63	Weapons of the Chinese Green Standard Army Hi guys, I just finished an infographic on edged weapons used by the Qing danasty Green Standard Army that will accompany an article in my site. It is based on the information from the 1766 woodblock edition of the Huanchao Liqi Tushi, a work commissioned by the Qianlong emperor. The book covers court regulations on all sorts of items, including weapons. It was based on a manuscript of 1759. In my drawing I kept true to the original sizes, including shaft diameters and blade widths mentioned in the text. I also reproduced the colors, as mentioned in the original text. To the left a silhouette of a man I made 175cm (5 foot 7) for size comparison. Next to him is a standard pattern military saber or yaodao / peidao, of the same period, also for comparison. I hope you like it. Any comments / questions welcome! Attached Images

4th May 2017, 06:07 AM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Very useful and well-presented! A much-needed ID and classification scheme, having it illustrated to scale makes it that much more useful. Looking forward to the addition of some descriptive details as your study progresses. For instance, I'm curious as to the essential characteristics of the BEIDAO or "back" saber. Does it refer to the thickness or particular profile of its spine (we're familiar with the term ZHIBEIDAO or "straight-back saber" which refers to a straight single-edged blade as seen on the familiar Tibetan sword). Or was its sheath meant to be worn at the belt, across the small of the user's back so that the hilt could be drawn from behind with the right hand? I've seen some late 18th/early 19th cent. graphics by Western artists in China, showing just such an arrangement with a somewhat short, cutlass-like weapon.

7th May 2017, 02:38 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	blade thicknesses From empirical observation, I note that most blades from the late Ming to mid-Qing seem to hover between 6 - 7 mm thickness at the forte (not counting the tunkou or sleeve at the base of some of them). This is assuming that they haven't been polished or ground down to remove deep pitting sometime in the past as is the case with a lot of stuff coming onto the market. Forte thicknesses in this range seem to be prevalent in a large number of other types of cut-and-thrust blades as well. We could chalk up this surprising consistency to functional parameters -- given a specific material (steel), a set of functional parameters (such as point of balance, rigidity, resilience and the need to absorb lateral stresses especially near the hilt), one could expect an optimum in terms of distal dimensions at the forte which different cultures. Thicknesses would tend to increase if more rigidity and stability were needed for longer weapons, or if there were other requirements for weight distribution in shorter ones. Re the latter, we've both observed a particular pattern of later (early 19th) Qing military sabers which are around 9-10 mm thick at the forte, as are some civilian "ox-tail" sabers. There are some shorter Indian talwars which have similar distal dimensions. This would call out for a deeper look at the fencing techniques and deployment situations for these particular weapons to explain their design characteristics since their distal profile .

3rd May 2017, 06:31 PM	#2
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	Well done, Peter! Nice meeting you in Baltimore

3rd May 2017, 07:10 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Peter Dekker This is an excellent work and perfect for library....as well as for beginners on these weapons like me! Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

4th May 2017, 10:11 PM	#5
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 63	Thanks for the encouragements! I had wondered the same about the beidao. It could well refer to the way it was carried because names like yaodao, peidao "waist sabers" and daidao "belt sabers" all refer to the way they are carried. I've checked more in-depth regulations for these arms and it seems the beidao's blade is fairly substantial for it's size: 10mm thick at the base. Both the standard yaodao the wodao (better known as "miaodao") and the changren dadao are only 7mm thick. All the other weapons in the diagram are also 10mm thick at the base of their blades. Interestingly, the yanyuedao is not covered in these minutely detailed regulations but they are on lists of equipment ordered and maintained periodically. This means units had considerable freedom in the execution of this weapon, which may help explain why they tend to vary so much in size and shape.