Blacksmith made ? sword for I.D. and comment

colin henshaw · 17th February 2013, 01:18 PM

Hi

I don't usually collect European weapons, these not being my area of interest - but found this sword a little while ago that I liked, because of its primitive look.

Can anyone help to identify its origins ? I can find no markings of any kind, and length is approx. 78cm.

It seems untouched, and any tips regarding cleaning this sword would also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance...

machinist · 17th February 2013, 05:03 PM

It looks like it might be a Spanish colonial "espada ancha" from Mexico or the south western U.S.

M ELEY · 17th February 2013, 05:13 PM

Awesome! It appears to be a colonial-made cutlass, circa 1780-1800. This pattern closely follows those naval companions of the period, but made out of necessity. It might still be Spanish colonial, but I lay odds that it's Amer Rev War. Love to have it for my collection-

. Excellent find, Colin!

CutlassCollector · 17th February 2013, 06:43 PM

Yes, interesting piece and I agree it definitely has a cutlass feel to it. The tapered wooden handle is also reminiscent of pictures of early US from around the Rev War, as Mark has already said. The overall length also gives a relatively short blade suitable for a cutlass. Good find.

fernando · 17th February 2013, 06:56 PM

Also i wouldn't mind having it ... at all

M ELEY · 18th February 2013, 12:35 AM

Colin, a little reference material and similar items can be seen-

Boarders Away, by W Gilkerson, pg 89-90
Weapons of the American Revolution, by Warren Moore, pg 166
Swords/Blades of Amer Revolution, Neumann, plates 361S, 362S, 363S, 368S, 369S,370S,371S

It still could be Span colonial/Caribbean, as their patterns of West Indies cutlass very similar to Amer colonial and of the same time period.

Keep me in mind if you decide to part with it (

)...and Fernando, I saw it first!!

Jim McDougall · 18th February 2013, 03:33 AM

I think Im gonna go with Spanish colonial, and the scalloped shellguard, quillon and pommel attachment correspond to what Adams (1985) terms round tang espada anchas early 19th c. The blade, though hard to discern through the patination, but the blade seems hexagonal as seen on many of these.
It does indeed have remarkable resemblance to the cutlasses Mark describes, and that of course remains possible to the earlier, but I am compelled toward the 'round tang' as noted.

colin henshaw · 18th February 2013, 11:26 AM

Many thanks indeed for the input on this sword. Its very pleasing to know its probably such an interesting and historic piece.

So, presumably at the time of the American Revolution - the colonists lacked arms factories and blacksmiths were pressed into service making weapons... ?

I didn't mention that the blade is double-edged and of shallow diamond section.

Thanks to Mark for the references - I will pursue these.

Any recommendations about cleaning, or maybe its best to leave it as it is for the present ?

Regards

Jim McDougall · 18th February 2013, 12:39 PM

I think these rugged and deeply patinated items are indeed the most fascinating of historic arms, as they are the workhorses which likely saw use and probably were there in important times and events. With that I would implore you to use all restraint in the cleaning of this sword, and a light but as required use of WD40 to stabilize any active rust or corrosion. That dark patina is history quite literally embodied, and deserves to remain as the well seasoned time this sword has seen. A light coat of gun oil will act to preserve it, and keep its pride and respect.

Again, as Mark and Cutlass have noted, this sword does seem 'colonial' and of the 1780 period, but it is hard to say whether Spanish or American. It should be remembered that countless arms of Spains colonies were present throughout the Americas including our colonial regions, and were actually well represented among many international examples during the Revolution.
I think the affirmation of the hexagonal section on this blade more firmly sets this in Spanish provenance, and again the scalloped shellguard was much favored in Spanish context. The structure of the guard resembles espada anchas, and as discussed over years, many espadas with either scalloped or striated shellguards seem to have been popular in Spanish colonies in South and Central America as well as the Caribbean.

It is interesting to note that these straight DE blades typically regarded as Spanish 'dragoon' types of around mid 18th century (many earlier, see Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain) are known even to occur in the familiar Moroccan sa'if commonly termed 'nimcha' . In maritime settings, the 'Spanish Main' reached into these regions in that trade sphere as well.

Personally, and I know Mark will agree, these worn and patinated examples are my favorites, and as the sentinels of history will often share many of thier secrets, acting as your guide into history. Happy adventures !

LOL! Crossed posts Nando, gettin' a little slow these days, but I'll usually get there sooner or later

CutlassCollector · 18th February 2013, 02:30 PM

I have to admit I did not pick up on the diamond cross section, which would make it unlikely to be made by a US blacksmith of the period, who has suddenly been required to produce weapons for the revolution - they would I'm sure have stuck to a flat blade.
The majority of cutlasses are not normally double edged as there is not much finesse required in a sailor untrained in swordsmanship. If you are making a cutlass, a short sharp slashing club is what you're aiming for. So again I don't think a US blacksmith or cutler would have gone for double edge.

So this tends to lend support to the Spanish rather than my original thought of American colonial. Good find though and interesting thread.
CC.

ps. I know lots of swords were co-opted for use at sea but I can only think of one regulation cutlass made double edged - a short lived British variant from mid 19thC.

Jim McDougall · 18th February 2013, 05:45 PM

I think that the DE dragoon type blades are the result of trade blade or supply 'availability' rather than a specifically designed dynamic for these weapons. That was very much the case with three bar 'sabre' type hilts mounted with 'broadsword' blades in Mexico around the 1820s and possibly somewhat earlier. The 'dragoon' blades had been coming in from Spain since the 1770s, many if not most often had the 'draw me not without reason......' motto, and these DE blades were often reused.
Many of these blades saw many refurbishings, were actually found in some swords during the Revolutionary War' , and more often occurred in Mexican officers swords during the American war with Mexico (1846). These type blades in variation of course, turned up yet again during the Civil War, in this case often with Confederate officers who had acquired them presumably during the Mexican War (Custer acquired one allegedly from one of these officers).

The 'rounded tip' on blades is a feature favored for slashing cuts, seen on broadswords of Tuareg etc. in North Africa, and had been used earlier on sabre blades in many cases in Europe. As mentioned, these DE blades show up on the Moroccan sabres known as nimchas, and I recall often being surprised to see a 'broadsword' blade on what is ostensibly thought of as a SE sabre. This was simply because the blades were 'available' through trade.

M ELEY · 18th February 2013, 09:06 PM

Excellent catch on the hexagonal blade shape, Jim! I was also patiently waiting for the Master of the House to return (

). This is your expertise, by far. The rounded tip of the blade had caught my attention, but I hadn't thought of the whole picture until you nailed it. 'Machinist' also deserves a tip of the hat. I currently have two Spanish swords with rounded tips. One is a classic bilbo type and the other, an espada with a hilt like #1 in your picture, Jim, but with a straight, double edged blade. I'm told that other European countries also, as you noted, used rounded tips on their broadswords. Colin, I am 100% with Jim on conservation. A mild cleaning is best on these type swords. Again, an excellent find!

P.S. Jim, what is the name of the volume by Adams? Is it an article from Man-at-Arms, or a book by him? I'd like to track it down. Thanks!

colin henshaw · 20th February 2013, 12:36 PM

Hi

Many thanks for the further input on this sword. I have read through all the posts again, however am a bit unclear as to the final conclusions. Is it possible to simply clarify the following points, although I understand this is not an exact science :-

a) Is the sword "Spanish Colonial" ?
b) What date range ?
c) Could it be described as "blacksmith made" ?
d) Was the blade made in the colonies or a trade import from Europe ?
e) What about the hilt - was this made in the colonies or elsewhere ?

I should point out that I would not describe the blade as of hexagonal section - it is shallow diamond - very shallow indeed, almost flat in places, also a bit irregular.

I am attaching some close-ups of the blade, which may be of help. The sword certainly has a "home-made" and primitive look to it, which of course prompted me to acquire it.

Much appreciated, its always good to learn new things - regards.

M ELEY · 20th February 2013, 02:49 PM

I think the final consensus is Spanish colonial. The blade and hilt both appear to be black-smith made. The horn grip consistent with espada ancha (and Brazilian cutlass, I might add), even the shape of the grip is typical, now that Jim pointed us in the right direction. Time period is a little sketchy, as Spanish colonial weapons, by definition, often followed earlier patterns. I would wager, being that it doesn't have multiple knuckle bows, nor the riveted bars to the hilt, that it's earlier. It mimics both colonial American, British and European cutlass patterns from the 1780-1810 era, so it's at most that old, perhaps up to the first quarter of the 19th century. I wouldn't put it past that, as that was after the independence of many of the Spanish territories and you start seeing swords resembling more of the contemporary forms of the day. Once again, I love the sword. It has great character, almost a 'folk art' quality to it. When you think about these pieces, even though they don't fetch the high prices that, say, a Spanish cup-hilt would attract, you have to remember that they are one-of-a-kind. Didn't mean to jump in, but just wanted to show my deep appreciation for this item!

colin henshaw · 22nd February 2013, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I think the final consensus is Spanish colonial. The blade and hilt both appear to be black-smith made. The horn grip consistent with espada ancha (and Brazilian cutlass, I might add), even the shape of the grip is typical, now that Jim pointed us in the right direction. Time period is a little sketchy, as Spanish colonial weapons, by definition, often followed earlier patterns. I would wager, being that it doesn't have multiple knuckle bows, nor the riveted bars to the hilt, that it's earlier. It mimics both colonial American, British and European cutlass patterns from the 1780-1810 era, so it's at most that old, perhaps up to the first quarter of the 19th century. I wouldn't put it past that, as that was after the independence of many of the Spanish territories and you start seeing swords resembling more of the contemporary forms of the day. Once again, I love the sword. It has great character, almost a 'folk art' quality to it. When you think about these pieces, even though they don't fetch the high prices that, say, a Spanish cup-hilt would attract, you have to remember that they are one-of-a-kind. Didn't mean to jump in, but just wanted to show my deep appreciation for this item!

First class Mark, what an excellent source of knowledge the forum is !
No sure if it matters, but the handle is made of wood.

I will let you know if I decide to move the sword on.

Regards.

M ELEY · 22nd February 2013, 04:49 PM

Oops! Sorry about the mistake concerning the hilt materials. No, it doesn't change the outcome. Sometimes a picture isn't worth a thousand words. Nothing beats actually handling the 'beast'. Espada had hilts of both wood and horn and the pic made it appear yours could be the latter. I still wouldn't classify yours as a true espada ancha, but more of a Spanish colonial cutlass. The majority of the short-sword types typically had singe-edged curving blades with slat-wood/slat-horn grips (an important difference here from your rounded grip) that were sandwiched onto/riveted onto the tang. Your grip really does match the Amer colonial patterns of the period, thus my initial guess.

CutlassCollector · 22nd February 2013, 07:14 PM

Hi Colin,
Being new here I hesitated to suggest this earlier but I have run it past Jim McDougall and he agrees that it may be worth considering.
Your pictures show a lot of active corrosion and although WD40 and oil are good in most circumstances they work best on metal as opposed to oxides and it would be hard to exclude air and moisture completely over a long period so corrosion may continue.

There are products readily available online in small quantities and in non toxic, safe to use at home preparations, that will remove rust and render it inert long enough to seal it. The de-corroder fluid will remove some corrosion depending on how long it is left on so does require a bit of care and experiment, but it leaves the corrosion inactive. The museum 'wax' dries clear and gives a sealed non greasy surface which can be removed if needed.

Please be clear I am not in any way advocating shiny metal - just halting further corrosion.
In brief what your aiming for is to remove or deactivate the red rust - that's yesterdays corrosion - without removing the black inert patina of history.
You still end up with a rusty old sword but you have prevented further deterioration.
I'll not mention brand names here but if you want further info pm me.
Regards, CC

colin henshaw · 2nd April 2013, 05:01 PM

Hi there

I managed to get hold of the well illustrated book "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" by G C Neumann, 1973.

Certainly, there are American cutlass examples shown there which share similar attributes to those found on my sword - the exception being the scalloped shell guard, also single edged blades seem more popular on American swords of this period, as Mark and Jim have kindly detailed.

Interesting also to read up on the 18th century history of North America, I wonder if there are French colonial swords from this area to be found as well ?

20th February 2013, 12:36 PM	#13
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Many thanks for the further input on this sword. I have read through all the posts again, however am a bit unclear as to the final conclusions. Is it possible to simply clarify the following points, although I understand this is not an exact science :- a) Is the sword "Spanish Colonial" ? b) What date range ? c) Could it be described as "blacksmith made" ? d) Was the blade made in the colonies or a trade import from Europe ? e) What about the hilt - was this made in the colonies or elsewhere ? I should point out that I would not describe the blade as of hexagonal section - it is shallow diamond - very shallow indeed, almost flat in places, also a bit irregular. I am attaching some close-ups of the blade, which may be of help. The sword certainly has a "home-made" and primitive look to it, which of course prompted me to acquire it. Much appreciated, its always good to learn new things - regards. Attached Images

22nd February 2013, 04:49 PM	#16
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Oops! Sorry about the mistake concerning the hilt materials. No, it doesn't change the outcome. Sometimes a picture isn't worth a thousand words. Nothing beats actually handling the 'beast'. Espada had hilts of both wood and horn and the pic made it appear yours could be the latter. I still wouldn't classify yours as a true espada ancha, but more of a Spanish colonial cutlass. The majority of the short-sword types typically had singe-edged curving blades with slat-wood/slat-horn grips (an important difference here from your rounded grip) that were sandwiched onto/riveted onto the tang. Your grip really does match the Amer colonial patterns of the period, thus my initial guess. Last edited by M ELEY; 22nd February 2013 at 11:13 PM.

22nd February 2013, 07:14 PM	#17
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 331	Corrosion Hi Colin, Being new here I hesitated to suggest this earlier but I have run it past Jim McDougall and he agrees that it may be worth considering. Your pictures show a lot of active corrosion and although WD40 and oil are good in most circumstances they work best on metal as opposed to oxides and it would be hard to exclude air and moisture completely over a long period so corrosion may continue. There are products readily available online in small quantities and in non toxic, safe to use at home preparations, that will remove rust and render it inert long enough to seal it. The de-corroder fluid will remove some corrosion depending on how long it is left on so does require a bit of care and experiment, but it leaves the corrosion inactive. The museum 'wax' dries clear and gives a sealed non greasy surface which can be removed if needed. Please be clear I am not in any way advocating shiny metal - just halting further corrosion. In brief what your aiming for is to remove or deactivate the red rust - that's yesterdays corrosion - without removing the black inert patina of history. You still end up with a rusty old sword but you have prevented further deterioration. I'll not mention brand names here but if you want further info pm me. Regards, CC

17th February 2013, 01:18 PM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Blacksmith made ? sword for I.D. and comment Hi I don't usually collect European weapons, these not being my area of interest - but found this sword a little while ago that I liked, because of its primitive look. Can anyone help to identify its origins ? I can find no markings of any kind, and length is approx. 78cm. It seems untouched, and any tips regarding cleaning this sword would also be appreciated. Thanks in advance... Attached Images

17th February 2013, 05:03 PM	#2
machinist Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 93	It looks like it might be a Spanish colonial "espada ancha" from Mexico or the south western U.S.

17th February 2013, 05:13 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Awesome! It appears to be a colonial-made cutlass, circa 1780-1800. This pattern closely follows those naval companions of the period, but made out of necessity. It might still be Spanish colonial, but I lay odds that it's Amer Rev War. Love to have it for my collection- . Excellent find, Colin!

17th February 2013, 06:43 PM	#4
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 331	Yes, interesting piece and I agree it definitely has a cutlass feel to it. The tapered wooden handle is also reminiscent of pictures of early US from around the Rev War, as Mark has already said. The overall length also gives a relatively short blade suitable for a cutlass. Good find.

17th February 2013, 06:56 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Also i wouldn't mind having it ... at all

18th February 2013, 12:35 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Colin, a little reference material and similar items can be seen- Boarders Away, by W Gilkerson, pg 89-90 Weapons of the American Revolution, by Warren Moore, pg 166 Swords/Blades of Amer Revolution, Neumann, plates 361S, 362S, 363S, 368S, 369S,370S,371S It still could be Span colonial/Caribbean, as their patterns of West Indies cutlass very similar to Amer colonial and of the same time period. Keep me in mind if you decide to part with it ( )...and Fernando, I saw it first!!

18th February 2013, 03:33 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	I think Im gonna go with Spanish colonial, and the scalloped shellguard, quillon and pommel attachment correspond to what Adams (1985) terms round tang espada anchas early 19th c. The blade, though hard to discern through the patination, but the blade seems hexagonal as seen on many of these. It does indeed have remarkable resemblance to the cutlasses Mark describes, and that of course remains possible to the earlier, but I am compelled toward the 'round tang' as noted.

18th February 2013, 11:26 AM	#8
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Many thanks indeed for the input on this sword. Its very pleasing to know its probably such an interesting and historic piece. So, presumably at the time of the American Revolution - the colonists lacked arms factories and blacksmiths were pressed into service making weapons... ? I didn't mention that the blade is double-edged and of shallow diamond section. Thanks to Mark for the references - I will pursue these. Any recommendations about cleaning, or maybe its best to leave it as it is for the present ? Regards

18th February 2013, 12:39 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	I think these rugged and deeply patinated items are indeed the most fascinating of historic arms, as they are the workhorses which likely saw use and probably were there in important times and events. With that I would implore you to use all restraint in the cleaning of this sword, and a light but as required use of WD40 to stabilize any active rust or corrosion. That dark patina is history quite literally embodied, and deserves to remain as the well seasoned time this sword has seen. A light coat of gun oil will act to preserve it, and keep its pride and respect. Again, as Mark and Cutlass have noted, this sword does seem 'colonial' and of the 1780 period, but it is hard to say whether Spanish or American. It should be remembered that countless arms of Spains colonies were present throughout the Americas including our colonial regions, and were actually well represented among many international examples during the Revolution. I think the affirmation of the hexagonal section on this blade more firmly sets this in Spanish provenance, and again the scalloped shellguard was much favored in Spanish context. The structure of the guard resembles espada anchas, and as discussed over years, many espadas with either scalloped or striated shellguards seem to have been popular in Spanish colonies in South and Central America as well as the Caribbean. It is interesting to note that these straight DE blades typically regarded as Spanish 'dragoon' types of around mid 18th century (many earlier, see Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain) are known even to occur in the familiar Moroccan sa'if commonly termed 'nimcha' . In maritime settings, the 'Spanish Main' reached into these regions in that trade sphere as well. Personally, and I know Mark will agree, these worn and patinated examples are my favorites, and as the sentinels of history will often share many of thier secrets, acting as your guide into history. Happy adventures ! LOL! Crossed posts Nando, gettin' a little slow these days, but I'll usually get there sooner or later

18th February 2013, 02:30 PM	#10
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 331	I have to admit I did not pick up on the diamond cross section, which would make it unlikely to be made by a US blacksmith of the period, who has suddenly been required to produce weapons for the revolution - they would I'm sure have stuck to a flat blade. The majority of cutlasses are not normally double edged as there is not much finesse required in a sailor untrained in swordsmanship. If you are making a cutlass, a short sharp slashing club is what you're aiming for. So again I don't think a US blacksmith or cutler would have gone for double edge. So this tends to lend support to the Spanish rather than my original thought of American colonial. Good find though and interesting thread. CC. ps. I know lots of swords were co-opted for use at sea but I can only think of one regulation cutlass made double edged - a short lived British variant from mid 19thC.

18th February 2013, 05:45 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	I think that the DE dragoon type blades are the result of trade blade or supply 'availability' rather than a specifically designed dynamic for these weapons. That was very much the case with three bar 'sabre' type hilts mounted with 'broadsword' blades in Mexico around the 1820s and possibly somewhat earlier. The 'dragoon' blades had been coming in from Spain since the 1770s, many if not most often had the 'draw me not without reason......' motto, and these DE blades were often reused. Many of these blades saw many refurbishings, were actually found in some swords during the Revolutionary War' , and more often occurred in Mexican officers swords during the American war with Mexico (1846). These type blades in variation of course, turned up yet again during the Civil War, in this case often with Confederate officers who had acquired them presumably during the Mexican War (Custer acquired one allegedly from one of these officers). The 'rounded tip' on blades is a feature favored for slashing cuts, seen on broadswords of Tuareg etc. in North Africa, and had been used earlier on sabre blades in many cases in Europe. As mentioned, these DE blades show up on the Moroccan sabres known as nimchas, and I recall often being surprised to see a 'broadsword' blade on what is ostensibly thought of as a SE sabre. This was simply because the blades were 'available' through trade.

18th February 2013, 09:06 PM	#12
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Excellent catch on the hexagonal blade shape, Jim! I was also patiently waiting for the Master of the House to return ( ). This is your expertise, by far. The rounded tip of the blade had caught my attention, but I hadn't thought of the whole picture until you nailed it. 'Machinist' also deserves a tip of the hat. I currently have two Spanish swords with rounded tips. One is a classic bilbo type and the other, an espada with a hilt like #1 in your picture, Jim, but with a straight, double edged blade. I'm told that other European countries also, as you noted, used rounded tips on their broadswords. Colin, I am 100% with Jim on conservation. A mild cleaning is best on these type swords. Again, an excellent find! P.S. Jim, what is the name of the volume by Adams? Is it an article from Man-at-Arms, or a book by him? I'd like to track it down. Thanks!

20th February 2013, 02:49 PM	#14
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	I think the final consensus is Spanish colonial. The blade and hilt both appear to be black-smith made. The horn grip consistent with espada ancha (and Brazilian cutlass, I might add), even the shape of the grip is typical, now that Jim pointed us in the right direction. Time period is a little sketchy, as Spanish colonial weapons, by definition, often followed earlier patterns. I would wager, being that it doesn't have multiple knuckle bows, nor the riveted bars to the hilt, that it's earlier. It mimics both colonial American, British and European cutlass patterns from the 1780-1810 era, so it's at most that old, perhaps up to the first quarter of the 19th century. I wouldn't put it past that, as that was after the independence of many of the Spanish territories and you start seeing swords resembling more of the contemporary forms of the day. Once again, I love the sword. It has great character, almost a 'folk art' quality to it. When you think about these pieces, even though they don't fetch the high prices that, say, a Spanish cup-hilt would attract, you have to remember that they are one-of-a-kind. Didn't mean to jump in, but just wanted to show my deep appreciation for this item!

2nd April 2013, 05:01 PM	#18
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi there I managed to get hold of the well illustrated book "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" by G C Neumann, 1973. Certainly, there are American cutlass examples shown there which share similar attributes to those found on my sword - the exception being the scalloped shell guard, also single edged blades seem more popular on American swords of this period, as Mark and Jim have kindly detailed. Interesting also to read up on the 18th century history of North America, I wonder if there are French colonial swords from this area to be found as well ?