Strange matchlock pistol for ID CHINA ?

Cerjak · 14th December 2012, 02:46 PM

A friend of me just send me those pics about a matchlock system.
I hope that somebody could help him for identification.
Sorry the bad photos quality .
Regards

Cerjak

trenchwarfare · 14th December 2012, 09:23 PM

Wow. Unlike anything I've ever seen. Everything is backward. Lock is on the left. "Hammer" cocks forward, like the earlier matchlocks. Trigger pushes forward. And, the rammer comes out the back. I love it! For some reason, I'm thinking Maylasia

Gavin Nugent · 14th December 2012, 10:54 PM

A very beautiful and unusual firearm, I like it a lot.

At face value, although a wide net, I would suggest French Indo China as a region of origin, where exactly within I couldn't say but a guess would lead me to the Laos Tonkin border regions.

Gav

Richard G · 16th December 2012, 03:07 PM

To what does the forum think "T" over "A" refers?
Regards
Richard

Atlantia · 16th December 2012, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

To what does the forum think "T" over "A" refers?
Regards
Richard

We have an old saying here in England about 'A over T'

David R · 16th December 2012, 06:40 PM

Check out South America, Amazonian area. They were using matchlocks there as late as the 19thC. I have seen some pics and they were quite original in design.

Cerjak · 30th April 2018, 10:05 AM

A very detailed article about this pistol has been written by Andrey the site administrator historypistols.ru and you can consult it by the following link, the article is written in Russian however the site has a translator.

http://historypistols.ru/blog/fitiln...tolet-18-veka/

Jon MB · 30th April 2018, 06:33 PM

Great references on a very interesting item, many thanks guys!

fernando · 1st May 2018, 03:27 PM

If i dare have a say on this one, i would start by assuming that i would not reject that this pistol is one of a kind, whether commissioned by an exquisite customer or made exclusively by a smith with lots of imagination for his own property.

Looking at the center link in post #25 we read allusions to the letters AT being related with coins of the period (first half 17th century), whether the intention was to "transfer" the coin attitude or just the use of the same type (font) of letters. In fact the AT initials position in the pistol are inverted to those in the coins. Such coins are called "tangas", minted in (then) Portuguese Goa for use in Melaka (Malaca) and Sri Lanka (Ceilão). Also with some imagination we may realize that one of the decorations in this pistol breech has some resemblance with the grid of Saint Lourenço de Huesca, a Spanish medieval catholic deacon who was roasted (grilled) on fire by order of the Roman Emperor Valeriano. Remember that Portugal was reigned by Spanish Filipes between 1580-1640, thus the grid symbol in some coins ... so i realize.

As for the locks on the left side, we may see in the drawing posted by estcrh that these weapons were held against the left shoulder, which makes it coherent with the lock position.

I have been in contact with a prominent collector, whom in turn has had a strong relationship with W. Keith Neal, Master of the Worshipful Gunmakers Company of London, whom in the mid 20th. century already collected Cinhalese firearms. Mr. Neal assumed that they either have left hand locks as right hand ones, with no particular distinction. He eventually had in his collection an example which in time had a Portuguese snap matchlock on the right side, that was later converted into a dog catch flintlock on the left side. Having my contact discussed the left side lock issue with another scholar of his acquaintance, they registered that a great number of Cinhalese still writes with their left hand, concluding that in earlier periods such number was so significant that they have opted by producing guns with the lock in both sides.

Eventually Great Britain is the country in Europe where more left hand guns were produced, as actually is where more left handers exist.

.

.

Cerjak · 3rd May 2018, 05:04 AM

Dear Fernando,
Thanks for your post & your new photos and Thank you for re-quoted the post #25 sent by Estcrh
https://sirimunasiha.wordpress.com/a...la-matchlocks/
About the monogram appearing on the breech plate,the hypothesis regarding the letter AT seems very relevant, on the photos of the coins you posted we see a real similarity of font type and also An identical combination of the letter but reversed finally concerning the floral design I also recognize at least an influence.

best
Jean-Luc

14th December 2012, 02:46 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Strange matchlock pistol for ID CHINA ? A friend of me just send me those pics about a matchlock system. I hope that somebody could help him for identification. Sorry the bad photos quality . Regards Cerjak Attached Images

30th April 2018, 10:05 AM	#7
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	historypistols.ru A very detailed article about this pistol has been written by Andrey the site administrator historypistols.ru and you can consult it by the following link, the article is written in Russian however the site has a translator. http://historypistols.ru/blog/fitiln...tolet-18-veka/ Attached Images

1st May 2018, 03:27 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	If i dare have a say on this one, i would start by assuming that i would not reject that this pistol is one of a kind, whether commissioned by an exquisite customer or made exclusively by a smith with lots of imagination for his own property. Looking at the center link in post #25 we read allusions to the letters AT being related with coins of the period (first half 17th century), whether the intention was to "transfer" the coin attitude or just the use of the same type (font) of letters. In fact the AT initials position in the pistol are inverted to those in the coins. Such coins are called "tangas", minted in (then) Portuguese Goa for use in Melaka (Malaca) and Sri Lanka (Ceilão). Also with some imagination we may realize that one of the decorations in this pistol breech has some resemblance with the grid of Saint Lourenço de Huesca, a Spanish medieval catholic deacon who was roasted (grilled) on fire by order of the Roman Emperor Valeriano. Remember that Portugal was reigned by Spanish Filipes between 1580-1640, thus the grid symbol in some coins ... so i realize. As for the locks on the left side, we may see in the drawing posted by estcrh that these weapons were held against the left shoulder, which makes it coherent with the lock position. I have been in contact with a prominent collector, whom in turn has had a strong relationship with W. Keith Neal, Master of the Worshipful Gunmakers Company of London, whom in the mid 20th. century already collected Cinhalese firearms. Mr. Neal assumed that they either have left hand locks as right hand ones, with no particular distinction. He eventually had in his collection an example which in time had a Portuguese snap matchlock on the right side, that was later converted into a dog catch flintlock on the left side. Having my contact discussed the left side lock issue with another scholar of his acquaintance, they registered that a great number of Cinhalese still writes with their left hand, concluding that in earlier periods such number was so significant that they have opted by producing guns with the lock in both sides. Eventually Great Britain is the country in Europe where more left hand guns were produced, as actually is where more left handers exist. . . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 1st May 2018 at 03:47 PM.

3rd May 2018, 05:04 AM	#10
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Dear Fernando, Thanks for your post & your new photos and Thank you for re-quoted the post #25 sent by Estcrh https://sirimunasiha.wordpress.com/a...la-matchlocks/ About the monogram appearing on the breech plate,the hypothesis regarding the letter AT seems very relevant, on the photos of the coins you posted we see a real similarity of font type and also An identical combination of the letter but reversed finally concerning the floral design I also recognize at least an influence. best Jean-Luc Last edited by Cerjak; 3rd May 2018 at 05:29 AM.

14th December 2012, 09:23 PM	#2
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Wow. Unlike anything I've ever seen. Everything is backward. Lock is on the left. "Hammer" cocks forward, like the earlier matchlocks. Trigger pushes forward. And, the rammer comes out the back. I love it! For some reason, I'm thinking Maylasia

14th December 2012, 10:54 PM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A very beautiful and unusual firearm, I like it a lot. At face value, although a wide net, I would suggest French Indo China as a region of origin, where exactly within I couldn't say but a guess would lead me to the Laos Tonkin border regions. Gav

16th December 2012, 03:07 PM	#4
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 405	To what does the forum think "T" over "A" refers? Regards Richard

16th December 2012, 06:40 PM	#6
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Check out South America, Amazonian area. They were using matchlocks there as late as the 19thC. I have seen some pics and they were quite original in design.

30th April 2018, 06:33 PM	#8
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	Great references on a very interesting item, many thanks guys!