Is it a katar dagger ?

francantolin · 17th January 2020, 06:43 AM

Hello,

I hesitate to post it in the miscellanea forum,
do you think it's an old katar weapon or an old tool ( what for ?) ?

Kind regards

ariel · 17th January 2020, 09:18 AM

This is for Jens.

Kmaddock · 17th January 2020, 12:21 PM

My observations, and they are not based on anything concrete

To me it looks as if a wooden handle would have gone around the cross bar below the blade.

To use as a weapon though a circular piece of timber would not be the best as the knife would not index very well to know where the point is
and also it could swivel in use, very easily.

blade does look very blade like though

and definitely looks as if it has some good age to it

any back story?

Ken

Jens Nordlunde · 17th January 2020, 02:25 PM

Ariel - thank you for the invitation:-).

Ken, yes I think it could very well be a katar of a very old form. I dont know if you have read my article How Old is the Katar? If not, here it is.
https://www.academia.edu/31094926/How_Old_is_the_Katar
Originally the article was published in Arms & Armour. Vol. 10, no 1, 2013. Royal Armouries, Leeds.

A possible wooden grip, did not have to have been round, it could also have had other forms. See my catalogue pp. 182-183, or if you dont have it you can find some katars with only one cross bar on the MET homepage.

You do, now and again, see katars with only one cross bar, but it is not often, and they are usually quite old.
The missing protection, in this case the missing side guards, is strange, and I cant give you an answer to this, but in the south you sometimes see katars with very short side guards.

francantolin · 17th January 2020, 08:32 PM

Hello,

Thank you so much !
Especially Jens for your precious complete file about katars origin !
Really interesting !

No, there was no real back story,
the seller sold it as a really old knife, maybe european ...

I'll post more pictures when I'll receive it

Kind regards

Nihl · 17th January 2020, 11:01 PM

I personally would be wary of attributing much age to this piece. Assuming it is even supposed to be some kind of katar, there are fair number of "katars" of similar form - all of which are blatant fakes/crude reproductions - that are currently being sold online.

Attached is one such example.

mariusgmioc · 18th January 2020, 09:36 AM

Definitely not a katar as it would be impossible to use, thus useless.
This contraption simply cannot be held firmly in the hand.

fernando · 18th January 2020, 11:15 AM

That this is or not a katar, i wouldn't presume to have the luggage to judge on it but, i wouldn't easily reject that its sole bar doesn't allow for a firm grip, without pondering on its (missing) handle. Think of such being of a (wooden) square cross section ... or ovoid, like the naginata, for one

.

Jens Nordlunde · 18th January 2020, 03:55 PM

The katar shown in the article (no 205) is a drawing I found in Holstein's Contribution a L'etude des Armes Orientales, vol. I, and his reference to Mitra's book made me buy the book, and start to research the katar.

Mitra wrote the book in 1875, so he had to make a drawing. I knew where the temple in Orissa was, and tried to make a photographer take a picture of the statue, but unfortunately he could not find it. Later I found a picture of the statue in a book on Hindu Temples of Orissa, vol III.
In Art and Culture 1300-1900 Stuart Cary Welsh wrote, that the katar originally came from South India, but unfortunately he did not write why he thought so.

There were katars made with only on cross bar, and not only from the 10th and 11th century, but also later. Some had side bars and some a plate in front of the hand, but they are not often seen.

francantolin · 24th January 2020, 05:46 PM

Hello everybody,

I finally received it !!
don't really know what to think about it,
seems old iron-steel ( really old !?!)

the top looks like a real old heavy spear ( total weight 850gr )
but don't sure it's an old katar:
The handle is really large 11cm
I'm not that big but not small !! (1,85 meter tall ), usually katar handle are pretty small for me, this one is really large !
( maybe for mammoth hunting ...)

francantolin · 24th January 2020, 05:53 PM

here some pics of the handle,

Before receiving it, I thought the side bars had been shortened but I don't think so

If it was an old on handle katar dagger , it could have a wood or bone grip like this one I found on internet,
said to be from the 17th century.

What do you think ? -Kind Regards

Frankie

francantolin · 24th January 2020, 05:55 PM

And if it's not a dagger/spear,
what could it be used for ??

Thank you !!!

Rich · 24th January 2020, 06:56 PM

Perhaps a parring dagger, like a Main Gauche ?
Rich

17th January 2020, 06:43 AM	#1
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 871	Is it a katar dagger ? Hello, I hesitate to post it in the miscellanea forum, do you think it's an old katar weapon or an old tool ( what for ?) ? Kind regards Attached Images

17th January 2020, 11:01 PM	#6
Nihl Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 90	I personally would be wary of attributing much age to this piece. Assuming it is even supposed to be some kind of katar, there are fair number of "katars" of similar form - all of which are blatant fakes/crude reproductions - that are currently being sold online. Attached is one such example. Attached Images

24th January 2020, 05:46 PM	#10
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 871	Hello everybody, I finally received it !! don't really know what to think about it, seems old iron-steel ( really old !?!) the top looks like a real old heavy spear ( total weight 850gr ) but don't sure it's an old katar: The handle is really large 11cm I'm not that big but not small !! (1,85 meter tall ), usually katar handle are pretty small for me, this one is really large ! ( maybe for mammoth hunting ...) Attached Images

24th January 2020, 05:53 PM	#11
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 871	here some pics of the handle, Before receiving it, I thought the side bars had been shortened but I don't think so If it was an old on handle katar dagger , it could have a wood or bone grip like this one I found on internet, said to be from the 17th century. What do you think ? -Kind Regards Frankie Attached Images

17th January 2020, 09:18 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	This is for Jens.

17th January 2020, 12:21 PM	#3
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	My observations, and they are not based on anything concrete To me it looks as if a wooden handle would have gone around the cross bar below the blade. To use as a weapon though a circular piece of timber would not be the best as the knife would not index very well to know where the point is and also it could swivel in use, very easily. blade does look very blade like though and definitely looks as if it has some good age to it any back story? Ken

17th January 2020, 02:25 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel - thank you for the invitation:-). Ken, yes I think it could very well be a katar of a very old form. I dont know if you have read my article How Old is the Katar? If not, here it is. https://www.academia.edu/31094926/How_Old_is_the_Katar Originally the article was published in Arms & Armour. Vol. 10, no 1, 2013. Royal Armouries, Leeds. A possible wooden grip, did not have to have been round, it could also have had other forms. See my catalogue pp. 182-183, or if you dont have it you can find some katars with only one cross bar on the MET homepage. You do, now and again, see katars with only one cross bar, but it is not often, and they are usually quite old. The missing protection, in this case the missing side guards, is strange, and I cant give you an answer to this, but in the south you sometimes see katars with very short side guards.

17th January 2020, 08:32 PM	#5
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 871	Hello, Thank you so much ! Especially Jens for your precious complete file about katars origin ! Really interesting ! No, there was no real back story, the seller sold it as a really old knife, maybe european ... I'll post more pictures when I'll receive it Kind regards

18th January 2020, 09:36 AM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Definitely not a katar as it would be impossible to use, thus useless. This contraption simply cannot be held firmly in the hand.

18th January 2020, 11:15 AM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	That this is or not a katar, i wouldn't presume to have the luggage to judge on it but, i wouldn't easily reject that its sole bar doesn't allow for a firm grip, without pondering on its (missing) handle. Think of such being of a (wooden) square cross section ... or ovoid, like the naginata, for one .

18th January 2020, 03:55 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The katar shown in the article (no 205) is a drawing I found in Holstein's Contribution a L'etude des Armes Orientales, vol. I, and his reference to Mitra's book made me buy the book, and start to research the katar. Mitra wrote the book in 1875, so he had to make a drawing. I knew where the temple in Orissa was, and tried to make a photographer take a picture of the statue, but unfortunately he could not find it. Later I found a picture of the statue in a book on Hindu Temples of Orissa, vol III. In Art and Culture 1300-1900 Stuart Cary Welsh wrote, that the katar originally came from South India, but unfortunately he did not write why he thought so. There were katars made with only on cross bar, and not only from the 10th and 11th century, but also later. Some had side bars and some a plate in front of the hand, but they are not often seen.

24th January 2020, 05:55 PM	#12
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 871	And if it's not a dagger/spear, what could it be used for ?? Thank you !!!

24th January 2020, 06:56 PM	#13
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Perhaps a parring dagger, like a Main Gauche ? Rich