Unusual Tibetan hilted Saber

RSWORD · 23rd November 2008, 02:01 AM

This is an unusual piece to be purely Tibetan so thought it would make an interesting discussion piece. The hilt appears classical Eastern Tibet in style, but with a saber blade as opposed to a straight blade most typically found on Tibetan pieces. The blade exhibits very nice lamination, not unlike Tibetan swords, but the pattern flows through to the tip versus having the classical hairpin turn. You do find Tibetan style hairpin lamination in swords from Assam and also Bhutan. The blade has an unusual false edge about 8-9 inches from the tip which is atypical for Tibetan. It has been hypothesized that perhaps this sword may be from a border group in the corner of Tibet, Bhutan and Assam. Would certainly help explain some of the non-Tibetan features of the blade. The sword feels fantastic in the hands and has an extremely hard and sharp edge so it was meant for business. Thoughts?

Mark · 24th November 2008, 08:45 PM

An interesting hybrid. I would say the blade profile is more Indian than Chinese, so a more southern provenance or origin makes sense (at least to me). Is it possible that it is a re-profiled straight sword, made by grinding out along the spine and at the tip? It seems to me that the grain doesn't exactly follow the curve of the blade.

RSWORD · 24th November 2008, 09:11 PM

Hi Mark. It is not a reprofiled straight sword as the edge hardness/tempering goes all the way to the tip. An altered sword would not typically have that hardness/tempering remaining in the tip of the sword.

josh stout · 25th November 2008, 02:42 PM

The hilt as you say is typically Eastern Tibetan, and is typical of what I have seen coming out of Qinghai. My guess is the saber is from the Kokonor Mongols.

The Mongols adapted many Tibetan styles, but LaRocca mentions that Tibetans recognized curved blades as typical of the Mongols. Given some time I can find the name for the saber type in the appendix of terms in the Tibetan arms and armor book.
Josh

Gavin Nugent · 25th November 2008, 06:44 PM

A nice clean example of an unusual sword Rick!

Great Josh thinking, maybe I can help with the time factor and have a look.

There are two names that I can see within the appendix that may shed some light on this unusual piece.

The first is shang lang and the second is hu bde. The first refers to a single edged curved sword that the English would call a sabre, the second is a Mongol sword.

Gav

josh stout · 30th November 2008, 01:20 AM

Yeah those were the two names I was thinking of, but I just can't seem to remember them. The "hu" part comes from a Chinese word for foreigners usually referring to northern tribes such as the Mongols, but Tibetan words don’t stay in my head very well. Thanks for saving the time with a search. The %$$#@! appendix is alphabetized by the Tibetan alphabet.
Josh

23rd November 2008, 02:01 AM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Unusual Tibetan hilted Saber This is an unusual piece to be purely Tibetan so thought it would make an interesting discussion piece. The hilt appears classical Eastern Tibet in style, but with a saber blade as opposed to a straight blade most typically found on Tibetan pieces. The blade exhibits very nice lamination, not unlike Tibetan swords, but the pattern flows through to the tip versus having the classical hairpin turn. You do find Tibetan style hairpin lamination in swords from Assam and also Bhutan. The blade has an unusual false edge about 8-9 inches from the tip which is atypical for Tibetan. It has been hypothesized that perhaps this sword may be from a border group in the corner of Tibet, Bhutan and Assam. Would certainly help explain some of the non-Tibetan features of the blade. The sword feels fantastic in the hands and has an extremely hard and sharp edge so it was meant for business. Thoughts? Attached Images

25th November 2008, 06:44 PM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Maybe I can help A nice clean example of an unusual sword Rick! Great Josh thinking, maybe I can help with the time factor and have a look. There are two names that I can see within the appendix that may shed some light on this unusual piece. The first is shang lang and the second is hu bde. The first refers to a single edged curved sword that the English would call a sabre, the second is a Mongol sword. Gav

24th November 2008, 08:45 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	An interesting hybrid. I would say the blade profile is more Indian than Chinese, so a more southern provenance or origin makes sense (at least to me). Is it possible that it is a re-profiled straight sword, made by grinding out along the spine and at the tip? It seems to me that the grain doesn't exactly follow the curve of the blade.

24th November 2008, 09:11 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Hi Mark. It is not a reprofiled straight sword as the edge hardness/tempering goes all the way to the tip. An altered sword would not typically have that hardness/tempering remaining in the tip of the sword.

25th November 2008, 02:42 PM	#4
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	The hilt as you say is typically Eastern Tibetan, and is typical of what I have seen coming out of Qinghai. My guess is the saber is from the Kokonor Mongols. The Mongols adapted many Tibetan styles, but LaRocca mentions that Tibetans recognized curved blades as typical of the Mongols. Given some time I can find the name for the saber type in the appendix of terms in the Tibetan arms and armor book. Josh

30th November 2008, 01:20 AM	#6
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Yeah those were the two names I was thinking of, but I just can't seem to remember them. The "hu" part comes from a Chinese word for foreigners usually referring to northern tribes such as the Mongols, but Tibetan words don’t stay in my head very well. Thanks for saving the time with a search. The %$$#@! appendix is alphabetized by the Tibetan alphabet. Josh