Celtic sword: Bamborough

urbanspaceman · 17th October 2023, 03:11 PM

The science of 'billet welding' that had begun centuries bCe with local Celts, continued to be used in Briton by Vikings, then Anglo-Saxons, until 1066.
(Bamborough Castle holds just such a blade: found in its grounds in 1960 and made of six strands of billet welded metal dating to c.600Ce.)
It appears to me (and I am asking for correction or corroboration here), that after the arrival of the Normans, we lost the art of forging good blades, until eventually, King Henry VIII set up the Greenwich Armoury and staffed it with (secretive!) outsiders.
What happened? Does anybody know?

Peter Hudson · 4th November 2023, 05:56 PM

Here it is....https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/y...g&action=click

werecow · 6th November 2023, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

Here it is....https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/y...g&action=click

In case this link dies.

fernando · 6th November 2023, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

In case this link dies.

Peter Hudson · 6th November 2023, 06:03 PM

For an excellent example and an intriguing conundrum please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb9vTu73xmE

Jim McDougall · 7th November 2023, 04:40 PM

This is a tough and very valid question, and though these areas are far from my range of familiarity, I cannot help being compelled to wonder the same thing. Why was blade production in the British Isles so limited, if not entirely absent ?
I never understood why the Scots never made their own blades (no matter what was shown in "The Highlander") and it seems only 'sword slippers' or cutlers were using blades from elsewhere (typically Germany) to assemble the swords they produced.

I am not sure if the Norman conquest of 1066 was a defining moment for the 'end' of blade making in Britain as change is typically subtle rather than dramatic or instantaneous. The question I have is, was blade making there really that prevalent?

Oakeshott (1964, "Sword in the Age of Chivalry", p.12) notes,
"...it should be noted however that nearly all examples of Celtic swords found in the British Isles tend to be smaller and of poor quality, but the Continental ones are splendidly made". This was referring to 'Group I, 1050-1350, so perhaps this notes the 'decline' being discussed.

I am unclear on the terminology in blade making but it seems that billet welding and 'pattern welding' are basically the same. From what I can understand this consists of welding together separate forms of metal stock and forging them together (my entirely lay observation). This was the character of the blades of the Viking period. The medieval swords of the 'Romanesque' period or 'great swords' had developed from these Viking swords of 9th c. + and the 'Norman' swords, if I understand correctly were considered 'transitional'.

From here the primary influences, if not sources, for swords were of the Carolingians and Franks.

In "Swords of the Viking Age" (Pierce, 2002), Oakeshott notes (p.3)
"..we can be fairly sure that blades, the best blades that is, were made in the Rhineland, where the town of Solingen later grew, and in the region of the old Roman Noricum (S. Bavaria) where the Celts of the earlier iron age as well as the Romans obtained their swords, because in these two locations was found the finest iron".

It would seem that the hardest thing about identifying sword blades of these early periods, before they were marked by makers of course, is that they were really so similar in convention. As Lee Jones profoundly noted in the Viking Age book, the primary means of sword identification rests on the hilt, as here is the area of most distinctive variation which can be aligned with local or period character.

While we know the location where a sword is found deposited, we cannot be certain of the origin of the blade, or naturally the entire sword might be from somewhere else (as lost in a raid or battle).

H.R. Ellis-Davidson noted in "The Sword in Anglo Saxon England" 1962,p.34)

that "...pattern welded swords may not have been made in many workshops, and as yet there is no evidence they were produced in England or Scandinavia, though there seems no convincing evidence why they should not have been".

I guess my take on this would be that the prevalence of blade production was mostly Continental, primarily in the German locations, with some degree of presence of smiths in outlying areas. Changes in forging methods were likely dominated on the Continent as pattern welding diminished as well as new means of smelting and forging steel became more advanced.

While an admittedly elementary view with my limited understanding of metallurgy, blade construction and these ancient times, I simply wanted to add what I could to a most interesting question.

17th October 2023, 03:11 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 532	Celtic sword: Bamborough The science of 'billet welding' that had begun centuries bCe with local Celts, continued to be used in Briton by Vikings, then Anglo-Saxons, until 1066. (Bamborough Castle holds just such a blade: found in its grounds in 1960 and made of six strands of billet welded metal dating to c.600Ce.) It appears to me (and I am asking for correction or corroboration here), that after the arrival of the Normans, we lost the art of forging good blades, until eventually, King Henry VIII set up the Greenwich Armoury and staffed it with (secretive!) outsiders. What happened? Does anybody know?

6th November 2023, 06:03 PM	#5
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 314	ANGLO SAXON SWORDS. For an excellent example and an intriguing conundrum please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb9vTu73xmE

4th November 2023, 05:56 PM	#2
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 314	Here it is....https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/y...g&action=click

7th November 2023, 04:40 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	This is a tough and very valid question, and though these areas are far from my range of familiarity, I cannot help being compelled to wonder the same thing. Why was blade production in the British Isles so limited, if not entirely absent ? I never understood why the Scots never made their own blades (no matter what was shown in "The Highlander") and it seems only 'sword slippers' or cutlers were using blades from elsewhere (typically Germany) to assemble the swords they produced. I am not sure if the Norman conquest of 1066 was a defining moment for the 'end' of blade making in Britain as change is typically subtle rather than dramatic or instantaneous. The question I have is, was blade making there really that prevalent? Oakeshott (1964, "Sword in the Age of Chivalry", p.12) notes, "...it should be noted however that nearly all examples of Celtic swords found in the British Isles tend to be smaller and of poor quality, but the Continental ones are splendidly made". This was referring to 'Group I, 1050-1350, so perhaps this notes the 'decline' being discussed. I am unclear on the terminology in blade making but it seems that billet welding and 'pattern welding' are basically the same. From what I can understand this consists of welding together separate forms of metal stock and forging them together (my entirely lay observation). This was the character of the blades of the Viking period. The medieval swords of the 'Romanesque' period or 'great swords' had developed from these Viking swords of 9th c. + and the 'Norman' swords, if I understand correctly were considered 'transitional'. From here the primary influences, if not sources, for swords were of the Carolingians and Franks. In "Swords of the Viking Age" (Pierce, 2002), Oakeshott notes (p.3) "..we can be fairly sure that blades, the best blades that is, were made in the Rhineland, where the town of Solingen later grew, and in the region of the old Roman Noricum (S. Bavaria) where the Celts of the earlier iron age as well as the Romans obtained their swords, because in these two locations was found the finest iron". It would seem that the hardest thing about identifying sword blades of these early periods, before they were marked by makers of course, is that they were really so similar in convention. As Lee Jones profoundly noted in the Viking Age book, the primary means of sword identification rests on the hilt, as here is the area of most distinctive variation which can be aligned with local or period character. While we know the location where a sword is found deposited, we cannot be certain of the origin of the blade, or naturally the entire sword might be from somewhere else (as lost in a raid or battle). H.R. Ellis-Davidson noted in "The Sword in Anglo Saxon England" 1962,p.34) that "...pattern welded swords may not have been made in many workshops, and as yet there is no evidence they were produced in England or Scandinavia, though there seems no convincing evidence why they should not have been". I guess my take on this would be that the prevalence of blade production was mostly Continental, primarily in the German locations, with some degree of presence of smiths in outlying areas. Changes in forging methods were likely dominated on the Continent as pattern welding diminished as well as new means of smelting and forging steel became more advanced. While an admittedly elementary view with my limited understanding of metallurgy, blade construction and these ancient times, I simply wanted to add what I could to a most interesting question.