Walloon sword for coments

fernando · 3rd November 2008, 08:41 PM

This piece is on its way to my little collection.
Said to be German, dated around 1700.
Blade length 91, 5 cms
Width 38 mm
There are some numbers and letters marked on the pommel - LCR N118 - said to be regimental markings.
I would like to know your opinnion on this sword, namely on its age, country of origin and, if possible, an idea of the markings provenance.
Thanks a lot in advance.
Fernando

.

Jim McDougall · 4th November 2008, 01:33 AM

Very, very nice Fernando!!
These very businesslike military swords have always been most appealing to me, and I was always intrigued by the curious term for them. According to Neumann, "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution", pp.156,157) these bilobate counterguard horsemans swords seem to have originated in the Low Countries around the first part of the 17th century, and gained popularity across Europe. The term 'walloon' refers to the people of Wallonia (fr.=wall), which is a region in Belgium, and it seems likely became colloquially used , probably by the French, for this type of sword.
In Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967, p.372) there is an Austrian cavalry example nearly identical to yours, shown as the beginning of the 18th century. I cannot recall offhand the case with the prominant screws holding the elements of the guard to the pommel, but this seems also a very early feature, and the rebated, rounded point of the blade is most interesting. It seems these type blades are seen on German swords of this period.
I am not sure on the markings, and they same inscribed later, on the pommel seems unusual.

All best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 4th November 2008, 05:12 AM

Awesome sword, Fernando! (green with envy, green with envy! _Did I think that aloud!). The rounded tip is just like that found on one of my swords (the Spanish bilbo). I had assumed the tip had broke & been reshaped or that it had lost its point from over-sharpening.

Jim, did I understand you correctly that some of the older swords with slightly rounded points were a common pattern in German swords? As said above, I've seen this in some Spanish pieces as well (probably imported blades, I imagine?). thanks,
Mark

Jim McDougall · 4th November 2008, 07:52 PM

Hi Mark,
I wouldnt say it was particularly common, but I have seen this rounded tip feature on a number of German 17th century blades, one with Spanish markings mounted on a Scottish baskethilt mounted c.1680. I have seen the same tip on German blades with Spanish markings found on Hungarian sword of same period. To me it has always seem interesting that the blades on Omani kattara are invariably with rounded point, as are Tuareg takoubas, both known for receiving German trade broadsword blades.

It would be interesting to check on resources to see how many instances do reveal this rounded tip, and how often they occur on German trade blades.

All the best,
Jim

celtan · 6th November 2008, 01:24 AM

Darn It! Your walloon is prettier than mine...

QUOTE=fernando]This piece is on its way to my little collection.
Said to be German, dated around 1700.
Blade length 91, 5 cms
Width 38 mm
There are some numbers and letters marked on the pommel - LCR N118 - said to be regimental markings.
I would like to know your opinnion on this sword, namely on its age, country of origin and, if possible, an idea of the markings provenance.
Thanks a lot in advance.
Fernando

Paul Macdonald · 13th November 2008, 09:20 PM

Hi Folks,

The Walloon is very similar to one that I have recently restored. It forms part of the armoury collection of Kelly Castle in Scotland, which I have for restoration at the moment.

Atlantia · 13th November 2008, 09:40 PM

Congratulations Fernando!!!
What a lovely example, I've always wanted one of these! I am very envious, I don't think you could have hoped to find a better one.

Manuel!

Extremely fine sword there as well!

*sigh*

So many beautiful swords in the world that I don't own!

Carl M · 8th July 2011, 01:33 AM

Very nice swords!

I recently purchased this:

M ELEY · 21st July 2011, 08:26 AM

Very nice sword, Carl! I particularly like the grotesque staring face on the guard. Is this reminescent of the so-called mourning swords portraying the "death's Head" of King Louis? These types date to the English Civil War period, contemporary with your walloon. Great find!!

3rd November 2008, 08:41 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Walloon sword for coments This piece is on its way to my little collection. Said to be German, dated around 1700. Blade length 91, 5 cms Width 38 mm There are some numbers and letters marked on the pommel - LCR N118 - said to be regimental markings. I would like to know your opinnion on this sword, namely on its age, country of origin and, if possible, an idea of the markings provenance. Thanks a lot in advance. Fernando . Attached Images

4th November 2008, 01:33 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Very, very nice Fernando!! These very businesslike military swords have always been most appealing to me, and I was always intrigued by the curious term for them. According to Neumann, "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution", pp.156,157) these bilobate counterguard horsemans swords seem to have originated in the Low Countries around the first part of the 17th century, and gained popularity across Europe. The term 'walloon' refers to the people of Wallonia (fr.=wall), which is a region in Belgium, and it seems likely became colloquially used , probably by the French, for this type of sword. In Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967, p.372) there is an Austrian cavalry example nearly identical to yours, shown as the beginning of the 18th century. I cannot recall offhand the case with the prominant screws holding the elements of the guard to the pommel, but this seems also a very early feature, and the rebated, rounded point of the blade is most interesting. It seems these type blades are seen on German swords of this period. I am not sure on the markings, and they same inscribed later, on the pommel seems unusual. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 4th November 2008 at 02:41 AM.

8th July 2011, 01:33 AM	#8
Carl M Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20	Very nice swords! I recently purchased this: Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 11th July 2011 at 01:04 PM. Reason: Pictures direct upload

4th November 2008, 05:12 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Awesome sword, Fernando! (green with envy, green with envy! _Did I think that aloud!). The rounded tip is just like that found on one of my swords (the Spanish bilbo). I had assumed the tip had broke & been reshaped or that it had lost its point from over-sharpening. Jim, did I understand you correctly that some of the older swords with slightly rounded points were a common pattern in German swords? As said above, I've seen this in some Spanish pieces as well (probably imported blades, I imagine?). thanks, Mark

4th November 2008, 07:52 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Mark, I wouldnt say it was particularly common, but I have seen this rounded tip feature on a number of German 17th century blades, one with Spanish markings mounted on a Scottish baskethilt mounted c.1680. I have seen the same tip on German blades with Spanish markings found on Hungarian sword of same period. To me it has always seem interesting that the blades on Omani kattara are invariably with rounded point, as are Tuareg takoubas, both known for receiving German trade broadsword blades. It would be interesting to check on resources to see how many instances do reveal this rounded tip, and how often they occur on German trade blades. All the best, Jim

6th November 2008, 01:24 AM	#5
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Darn It! Your walloon is prettier than mine... QUOTE=fernando]This piece is on its way to my little collection. Said to be German, dated around 1700. Blade length 91, 5 cms Width 38 mm There are some numbers and letters marked on the pommel - LCR N118 - said to be regimental markings. I would like to know your opinnion on this sword, namely on its age, country of origin and, if possible, an idea of the markings provenance. Thanks a lot in advance. Fernando

13th November 2008, 09:20 PM	#6
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	Hi Folks, The Walloon is very similar to one that I have recently restored. It forms part of the armoury collection of Kelly Castle in Scotland, which I have for restoration at the moment.

13th November 2008, 09:40 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Congratulations Fernando!!! What a lovely example, I've always wanted one of these! I am very envious, I don't think you could have hoped to find a better one. Manuel! Extremely fine sword there as well! sigh So many beautiful swords in the world that I don't own!

21st July 2011, 08:26 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Very nice sword, Carl! I particularly like the grotesque staring face on the guard. Is this reminescent of the so-called mourning swords portraying the "death's Head" of King Louis? These types date to the English Civil War period, contemporary with your walloon. Great find!!