Portuguese cavalry saber

bvieira · 15th October 2018, 07:11 PM

Hello,

A Portuguese cavalry saber with marks, opinions (Fernando you are a specialist on this i welcome your appreciation) ?

Tks!

Best Regards,

Bruno Vieira

Will M · 15th October 2018, 07:30 PM

Looks like Charles Reeves, Birmingham.

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2018, 04:55 AM

Surely an anomaly.
Charles Reeves is believed to have begun with partner Joseph Greaves in 1829. While the blade marking is inconsistent with the manner of stamping blades at this time...usually on the back near the hilt.....this example is apparently a sword made for export to Spain.

It is of the M1821 regulation pattern for light cavalry, which had interruptions in production until 1829, when these were produced in number. They were superceded by the pattern 1853.

The unusual stamp on the face of the blade REEVES and the abbreviated Birmingham at the forte is as these were marked. It is odd to see the 'ears' from the backstrap usually on the troopers M1829 while this hilt has the braided wire wrap for the officers cavalry sabres.

Also unusual is the single carry ring on the scabbard, which on British cavalry swords there were two until much later.

fernando · 16th October 2018, 03:28 PM

As you see Bruno, your saber is not Portuguese, and the specialist in its context is Jim.
I just wonder whether this model was exported to Spain and not (also) to Portugal. Just wonder, not documented at all.

bvieira · 16th October 2018, 06:31 PM

Hello,

I know the saber is not portuguese, most of the blades and sabers used by portuguese troops were made outside portugal... soligen, toledo, Great Britain....

My question right know is if this a export model or a pure british troops version!

Tks!

Best Regards,

BV

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2018, 07:17 PM

I have only seen one of these offered by a very reputable dealer.....who I will not name as there are notable restrictions regarding commercial traffic here. In this case it was virtually identical with the exact same forte marking format down to the abbreviated Birmingham.

As the 1821 (1829) pattern was produced through the 1840s and not replaced until the M1853 pattern came out (ironically also produced largely by Reeves) it would estimate the period of this sword late 1830-40s. It seems unlikely that Reeves or anyone for that matter would produce these for export and in such an atypical manner:
1. the wire braid grip yet with riveted ears off backstrap.
2. the blade with such unconventional markings and abbreviation for
Birmingham. Also it is dramatically reprofiled if indeed a British
blade. The blade on these 1829 patterns was 35.5 " long.
3. The scabbard is with single carry ring....which is more suited for
a Sam Browne belt (sash) than the double ring carry.
The double ring carry on earlier scabbards was designed to be worn
low slung when as mostly fashion but some practicality for horseman.
The large surround on the chape is termed a drag as it is for doing so as
the cavalryman walked and scabbard tip scraped the ground....sort of like
jingling spurs (an old Texas thing) .
Obviously a sash carried scabbard and shorter blade would not require
a drag.

So is this a Spanish made example imitating the British? The Germans copied the M1796 British light cavalry sabre until they created their own version....the M1811 Blucher sabel.....perhaps the Spanish followed in this manner?
After seeing only one similar example I am not convinced of the Reeves export situation....but this is certainly an 1829 type sword....and in no way a sabre made for British troops.

15th October 2018, 07:11 PM	#1
bvieira Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 108	Portuguese cavalry saber Hello, A Portuguese cavalry saber with marks, opinions (Fernando you are a specialist on this i welcome your appreciation) ? Tks! Best Regards, Bruno Vieira Attached Images

15th October 2018, 07:30 PM	#2
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	Looks like Charles Reeves, Birmingham.

16th October 2018, 04:55 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Surely an anomaly. Charles Reeves is believed to have begun with partner Joseph Greaves in 1829. While the blade marking is inconsistent with the manner of stamping blades at this time...usually on the back near the hilt.....this example is apparently a sword made for export to Spain. It is of the M1821 regulation pattern for light cavalry, which had interruptions in production until 1829, when these were produced in number. They were superceded by the pattern 1853. The unusual stamp on the face of the blade REEVES and the abbreviated Birmingham at the forte is as these were marked. It is odd to see the 'ears' from the backstrap usually on the troopers M1829 while this hilt has the braided wire wrap for the officers cavalry sabres. Also unusual is the single carry ring on the scabbard, which on British cavalry swords there were two until much later.

16th October 2018, 03:28 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	As you see Bruno, your saber is not Portuguese, and the specialist in its context is Jim. I just wonder whether this model was exported to Spain and not (also) to Portugal. Just wonder, not documented at all.

16th October 2018, 06:31 PM	#5
bvieira Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 108	Hello, I know the saber is not portuguese, most of the blades and sabers used by portuguese troops were made outside portugal... soligen, toledo, Great Britain.... My question right know is if this a export model or a pure british troops version! Tks! Best Regards, BV

16th October 2018, 07:17 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	I have only seen one of these offered by a very reputable dealer.....who I will not name as there are notable restrictions regarding commercial traffic here. In this case it was virtually identical with the exact same forte marking format down to the abbreviated Birmingham. As the 1821 (1829) pattern was produced through the 1840s and not replaced until the M1853 pattern came out (ironically also produced largely by Reeves) it would estimate the period of this sword late 1830-40s. It seems unlikely that Reeves or anyone for that matter would produce these for export and in such an atypical manner: 1. the wire braid grip yet with riveted ears off backstrap. 2. the blade with such unconventional markings and abbreviation for Birmingham. Also it is dramatically reprofiled if indeed a British blade. The blade on these 1829 patterns was 35.5 " long. 3. The scabbard is with single carry ring....which is more suited for a Sam Browne belt (sash) than the double ring carry. The double ring carry on earlier scabbards was designed to be worn low slung when as mostly fashion but some practicality for horseman. The large surround on the chape is termed a drag as it is for doing so as the cavalryman walked and scabbard tip scraped the ground....sort of like jingling spurs (an old Texas thing) . Obviously a sash carried scabbard and shorter blade would not require a drag. So is this a Spanish made example imitating the British? The Germans copied the M1796 British light cavalry sabre until they created their own version....the M1811 Blucher sabel.....perhaps the Spanish followed in this manner? After seeing only one similar example I am not convinced of the Reeves export situation....but this is certainly an 1829 type sword....and in no way a sabre made for British troops.