help for medieval handgonne hand gun identification

sioume · 21st October 2012, 09:00 PM

Hi Folks,

Is there any body who can help me to identify this iron cast barrel?
total lenght: 24,5 cm
largest diameter : 10,5 cm
mouth diameter : 9 cm
inner diameter of the mouth : 4 cm
weight: 7,4 kg
Very great patina

Is this a early late 14 th/15 th handgonne or a signaling mortar used by boats and harbors to signal each other. They would shot a different color signal depending on what they wanted to say
I read a thread depicting such barrels and Mathlock's collection but I am not sure at all.
Is it a valuable and rare piece?
Thanks a lot
Alain

fernando · 22nd October 2012, 06:46 PM

Hi Alain,
A pity Matchlock will be absent for a while.
Your piece is very interesting; its dimendions are similar to my example posted HERE
While mine was considered a hand cannon and not a signal mortar, having to do with particular details for which Matchlock (for one) is a better judge,
i wouldn't advance on what yours is. The caliber and barrel thickness would suggest a cannon but the basis and touch hole with that slight lip (a repair?) suggest a (standing up) mortar.
I would agree is an old and very nice piece in any case. Naturaly cannons (handgonnes) are more rare, being much earlier than mortars; also the value depends on that.
I hope this helps and that i am not talking nonsense.

sioume · 22nd October 2012, 07:33 PM

Thanks very much Fernando for your advice.

Yes I have already read your interested thread .
The slight lip is not a repair
Could you tell me if mortars are early pieces ?
Is such piece could be medieval?
What was the purpose of standing mortars?

I also think that Matchlock will be a great judge, I read his threads as well....Let's wait till he will be back !!!

Thanks for helping
Alain

fernando · 23rd October 2012, 11:38 AM

When i say 'repair' i mean some addition from the period, not modern work.
By standing mortar i meant that usualy signaling mortars stand in a vertical position; reason why some times they have lips to deposit the gunpowder for ignition. Handgonnes/hand cannons are used horizontaly, generaly mounted in stocks or other supports. Mortars are used in signals, navy and land, as also in celebrations, religious and other. Exceptionaly they were used in war, set up as traps to defend castle gates and surroundings. Mortars are hardly medieval, as far as i know. The idea to use tubular devices for fire signals is later than that of developing handcannons, which date from the beginning of artillery.

sioume · 23rd October 2012, 10:25 PM

Thanks Fernando,

This seems to be clear. I do not know if we will need the help of Matchlock !!

What would you say for its datation, 16 th, 17 th c.??

Merci
Alain

fernando · 24th October 2012, 11:51 AM

Ho, i wouldn't know; hardly 17th ... possibly 18th, as not 19th

.
Mind you, in your first post you mentioned it is made in cast iron, but i would say it is forged iron. Cast iron mortars are definitely later ... like 19th.

21st October 2012, 09:00 PM	#1
sioume Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 12	help for medieval handgonne hand gun identification Hi Folks, Is there any body who can help me to identify this iron cast barrel? total lenght: 24,5 cm largest diameter : 10,5 cm mouth diameter : 9 cm inner diameter of the mouth : 4 cm weight: 7,4 kg Very great patina Is this a early late 14 th/15 th handgonne or a signaling mortar used by boats and harbors to signal each other. They would shot a different color signal depending on what they wanted to say I read a thread depicting such barrels and Mathlock's collection but I am not sure at all. Is it a valuable and rare piece? Thanks a lot Alain Attached Images

22nd October 2012, 06:46 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Alain, A pity Matchlock will be absent for a while. Your piece is very interesting; its dimendions are similar to my example posted HERE While mine was considered a hand cannon and not a signal mortar, having to do with particular details for which Matchlock (for one) is a better judge, i wouldn't advance on what yours is. The caliber and barrel thickness would suggest a cannon but the basis and touch hole with that slight lip (a repair?) suggest a (standing up) mortar. I would agree is an old and very nice piece in any case. Naturaly cannons (handgonnes) are more rare, being much earlier than mortars; also the value depends on that. I hope this helps and that i am not talking nonsense.

22nd October 2012, 07:33 PM	#3
sioume Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 12	Thanks very much Fernando for your advice. Yes I have already read your interested thread . The slight lip is not a repair Could you tell me if mortars are early pieces ? Is such piece could be medieval? What was the purpose of standing mortars? I also think that Matchlock will be a great judge, I read his threads as well....Let's wait till he will be back !!! Thanks for helping Alain

23rd October 2012, 11:38 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	When i say 'repair' i mean some addition from the period, not modern work. By standing mortar i meant that usualy signaling mortars stand in a vertical position; reason why some times they have lips to deposit the gunpowder for ignition. Handgonnes/hand cannons are used horizontaly, generaly mounted in stocks or other supports. Mortars are used in signals, navy and land, as also in celebrations, religious and other. Exceptionaly they were used in war, set up as traps to defend castle gates and surroundings. Mortars are hardly medieval, as far as i know. The idea to use tubular devices for fire signals is later than that of developing handcannons, which date from the beginning of artillery.

23rd October 2012, 10:25 PM	#5
sioume Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 12	Thanks Fernando, This seems to be clear. I do not know if we will need the help of Matchlock !! What would you say for its datation, 16 th, 17 th c.?? Merci Alain

24th October 2012, 11:51 AM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Ho, i wouldn't know; hardly 17th ... possibly 18th, as not 19th . Mind you, in your first post you mentioned it is made in cast iron, but i would say it is forged iron. Cast iron mortars are definitely later ... like 19th.