Rapier hilt and gurda blade?

erlikhan · 26th March 2005, 08:12 PM

hi. can you please check the pictures and tell what you think about this sword?

tom hyle · 26th March 2005, 09:36 PM

Looks real; certainly a real style; I think it's Swiss/German.

ariel · 26th March 2005, 09:51 PM

I do not think it is caucasian gurda; they imitated the European marking. You got an original stuff: German/Austrian/N.Italian (Styrian).
This is one of the cases when getting the "fake" would be better than the original

wolviex · 26th March 2005, 09:58 PM

To me it looks like 17th century west European sabre. Many of them were produced and were in use in those days I think. And the hilt is very "natural" for such sabres too, so I wouldn't call it a rapier hilt. I can't tell what are this markings, maybe they are similiar to those used in Caucas as you suggest, I don't know, I haven't got any book on markings by now around me so I hope that other will help you with this. But I saw something similiar on other sabre (not the same thought but close) which was called Venetian. And I don't mean the markings of Genua "sickle", by the way which we could call similiar too

.

This one looks anytique and complete. I think it's quite good. But one thing is worrieng me. I just saw on one of the Italian auction house the edged weapons made in 19th century from so called historical period. Some of them looks very antique on photographs. Anyway, how to belive the photographs from now

Ragards!

Rivkin · 26th March 2005, 10:06 PM

It's not a caucasian gurda, it looks to me like a real gurda - Genoese blade.

wolviex · 26th March 2005, 10:18 PM

Maybe these are Genuese markings, but they're different from those Genuese markings seen on Polish sabres in 17th century. Rivikin, are you sure this are from Genua ??. I can't check this markings now, so I want to be sure that you are sure

Rivkin · 27th March 2005, 12:51 AM

Well, I'm far too ignorant to be sure of anything, but they look 100% like a caucasian gurda, and gurda is a copy of a genoese mark... However I heard that there used to be very similar marks on venetian swords.

Yannis · 27th March 2005, 09:34 AM

THIS IS AN ACTIVE EBAY AUCTION

swordsmith · 27th March 2005, 10:54 AM

I am the owner of this sword and feel very aggrieved that someone is trying to damage my E-Bay auction (which is still running). There is absolutely no doubt that this sword is original and my E-Bay feedback proves that I am an honest dealer. And I am also furious that my pictures (which are copyrighted) have been posted onto this web site without my permission - I am a member of SwordForum.com and this would never be allowed - I suggest that your moderators are not doing their job.

erlikhan · 27th March 2005, 12:04 PM

I dont know you, why would I wish to damage your auction? I am sure I didnt tell or ever give clue at all it is an ebay auction, and I even cared not to use any single word similar to your description words. I don't see any sign from the replies showing that other members learned its being on ebay from me or they used my topic to sabotage your auction. Pictures.ok. But they were already exhibited on a site which is widely open to public. I just thought to bid for it, and requested opinion thats all. If you really think it damaged your auction, I am sorry for that. I delete the pictures, and moderators can remove the topic completely.

swordsmith · 27th March 2005, 12:18 PM

Please delete the pictures as I did not give permission to use them - they are copyrighted and to be featured in a subsequent book. Regarding mentioning that this is a current E-Bay auction, I think that it is obvious which auction site that you are referring to - anybody who is remotely sensible will always look to E-Bay first - there really is no other auction site worth considering. If you had contacted me via E-Bay, I could have discussed the sword with you privately and answered any questions that you had. I would also

have been happy to print my answers on this forum. I value my reputation on E-Bay and have spent many years establishing it.

Yannis · 27th March 2005, 12:49 PM

I know our new member Swordsmith 4 years now and I know he is a very trusty person. I am very disappointed that he forced to enter in this forum in such situation. I think that the majority of us here didn’t want such situation. Moderators could not know in advance for the breaking of the rules.

We can turn all this to a positive value if Swordsmith stay in this forum and help us with his great knowledge on edged weapons. So I warmly welcome him.

tom hyle · 27th March 2005, 01:32 PM

Though I don't know what claims are being made in the selling (presumeably that it is Causcasian), it doesn't seem to me that anything bad or detracting has been said about this sword? Why so concerned? There's such a big deal over where it comes from? Someone please tell me what don't I know? Has reference to an auction been editted out? I don't see any? I certainly join in assuring Swordsmith of no ill intent; his dispute, it seems to me, can at most only be with Erlikhan, and only over the copyright on the photos, which Erlikhan didn't use commercially, so aside from making him cease and desist (done) I think that's all the recourse there is. Why so disturbed?

Andrew · 27th March 2005, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swordsmith

I am the owner of this sword and feel very aggrieved that someone is trying to damage my E-Bay auction (which is still running). There is absolutely no doubt that this sword is original and my E-Bay feedback proves that I am an honest dealer. And I am also furious that my pictures (which are copyrighted) have been posted onto this web site without my permission

First, swordsmith, welcome to the forum. I haven't seen anyone in this thread trying to damage your auction, or suggest that you were not an honest dealer. That is your interpretation, and for that I am sorry. Your photos were published on a public website, and posted here for discussion, not profit. In other words, fair use. Had you a concern, my preference would have been for you to contact myself or the other staff here and asked us to remove them.

Quote:

- I am a member of SwordForum.com and this would never be allowed -

I notice active auction links and photos posted on SFI regularly. If anything, our policy is more strict.

Quote:

I suggest that your moderators are not doing their job.

Really? How so? Would you like us to monitor every eBay auction to cross-reference it with every thread on this forum?

I suggest you read the rules of this forum, and if you have a concern, feel free to contact the Staff.

Tim Simmons · 27th March 2005, 02:25 PM

Why are auction sales not open to free market conditions like any other product.Potential buyers can discuss any goods among other potential buyers.One would not buy many products without reading a review or other consumer guide,if that guide did not recommend the goods then is that not just hard cheese?In theory even capitalism works.Tim

Yannis · 27th March 2005, 02:42 PM

There is a rule in this forum. We don’t discuss open auctions. I believe it is a fair rule so this forum will stay away of sellers intentions and bidders believes. We all learn here and I personally don’t like to read promotions or lies on a blade for financial reasons.

No matter if this rule is good or bad, it gives to all of us the same status against Ebay auctions. A lot of times, before I bid, I wished I had the opinions of some experts we have here but I didn’t ever think to brake the rule.

In this situation someone wanted the advantage against other bidders. He knew that it is not allowed to discuss open auctions, so he tried a “window” of the rule. I am not a lawyer to say if this is rule breaking or not. But I don’t find it gentlemanlike.

Rivkin · 27th March 2005, 04:31 PM

1. Concerning copyrights - without any permission, the images can be used for editorial (news) purposes - which obviously includes any discussions on this site (with some limitations).

2. There is a rule of not discussing active ebay auctions - the rule I personally greatly dislike, and the reason is that while I may be proficient enough in kindjals so I usually don't worry about buying on ebay (so if I would stick to kindjals I would love this rule), but I really like european swords, and unfortunately big and expensive books I have teach you nothing when it comes to how to distinguish fakes etc.

The results is that I have to pay for my education through series of disappointment.

Sincerely yours,

Kirill Rivkin

Andrew · 27th March 2005, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

2. There is a rule of not discussing active ebay auctions - the rule I personally greatly dislike, and the reason is that while I may be proficient enough in kindjals so I usually don't worry about buying on ebay (so if I would stick to kindjals I would love this rule), but I really like european swords, and unfortunately big and expensive books I have teach you nothing when it comes to how to distinguish fakes etc.

This very thread illustrates quite well why we have such a rule.

Quote:

The results is that I have to pay for my education through series of disappointment.

And so do we all. The upside is that you are free to discuss closed auctions and learn after the fact.

Rivkin · 28th March 2005, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

And so do we all. The upside is that you are free to discuss closed auctions and learn after the fact.

But not everyone is as cheap as me !
To be honest I am greatly disappointed by the direction this thread have taken, especially since no "badmouthing" of the blade was done [EDITED]

Andrew · 27th March 2005, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannis

There is a rule in this forum. We don’t discuss open auctions. I believe it is a fair rule so this forum will stay away of sellers intentions and bidders believes. We all learn here and I personally don’t like to read promotions or lies on a blade for financial reasons.

No matter if this rule is good or bad, it gives to all of us the same status against Ebay auctions. A lot of times, before I bid, I wished I had the opinions of some experts we have here but I didn’t ever think to brake the rule.

In this situation someone wanted the advantage against other bidders. He knew that it is not allowed to discuss open auctions, so he tried a “window” of the rule. I am not a lawyer to say if this is rule breaking or not. But I don’t find it gentlemanlike.

I have no idea what erlikan's intent was in posting those photos, and I doubt you do either, Yannis. Further, I submit that leveling accusations at erlikan about his intent is not "gentlemanlike", either, particularly in light of his immediate action to remove the offending photos and contrite apology.

I can assure you erlikan was not in violation of any current rule or policy of this forum.

Unfortunately, I cannot assure you those rules will remain the same in the wake of this thread.

Yannis · 27th March 2005, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

I have no idea what erlikan's intent was in posting those photos, and I doubt you do either, Yannis. Further, I submit that leveling accusations at erlikan about his intent is not "gentlemanlike",

Andrew read his post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

I just thought to bid for it, and requested opinion thats all.

I don’t accuse anyone. I think that I can read. And I still find it improper.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

I can assure you erlikan was not in violation of any current rule or policy of this forum.

So next time I want to learn about an open auction I just have to copy the photos, eh? Thank you, I will do that.
Rivkin this is the solution.

wolviex · 27th March 2005, 07:09 PM

Maybe it's my English, and maybe I don't understand every nuance in the discussion, but if I do remember well, other threads were closed just after it came to light they are about continuing auction.

If my words "Anyway, how to belive the photographs from now" (I hope not) were understood as a warning, I want to say they're not - it's only general thought and I was thinking about another obcjects actually. If so - I'm sorry. Anyway rules are rules but I don't want to decide instead of moderators - power is in your hands gentlemen

we are only the users

Regards!

erlikhan · 27th March 2005, 07:15 PM

Swordsmith, I already deleted them .I didnt refer any auction at all. I even didnt say it was offered to me by someone. I dont think this forum is a service of ebay where every item should refer to ebay or I dont think ebay is the only market of weapons . I publish many items here and most are not acquired from ebay.
Yannis, I and you dont like each other, everybody know this, and you try to use the situation personally.Childish .It is obvious even from the time of your message and the owner of the sword else than your continuing offense. It is ok, no problem. But if you slander me crazily without any proof to try to take advantage against other bidders (where I am even not a bidder ), in reverse I can accuse you that you expect profit from the auction and become disturbed from people critizising the item or you trying to make adversitement of the item by keeping active a topic, which's existence annoys you as far as you've said . Mine would not be more crazy than your comment.
As I said, if it is against forum rules and so unethical, moderators can remove the topic completely or lock it to prevent it from being used for negative or positive purposes about an ongoing auction.
regards

Andrew · 28th March 2005, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannis

Andrew read his post:

I read it, and my prior comment stands.

Quote:

I don’t accuse anyone. I think that I can read. And I still find it improper.

Yes, you did accuse someone. Yes, you can read. You also allow your personal issues and animosities color your participation in this forum. I suggest you stop.

Quote:

So next time I want to learn about an open auction I just have to copy the photos, eh? Thank you, I will do that.
Rivkin this is the solution.

As a result of your conduct on this very thread, the rule prohibiting discussion of active eBay auctions will now be expanded. It was our hope that "scholarly" discussion of an item, albeit in a ficticious vacuum would be possible.

Apparantly not.

26th March 2005, 08:12 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Rapier hilt and gurda blade? hi. can you please check the pictures and tell what you think about this sword? Last edited by erlikhan; 27th March 2005 at 12:10 PM.

26th March 2005, 10:18 PM	#6
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Genua or not genua ?? Maybe these are Genuese markings, but they're different from those Genuese markings seen on Polish sabres in 17th century. Rivikin, are you sure this are from Genua ??. I can't check this markings now, so I want to be sure that you are sure

27th March 2005, 09:34 AM	#8
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	WARNING THIS IS AN ACTIVE EBAY AUCTION

27th March 2005, 10:54 AM	#9
swordsmith Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 3	FALCHION SWORD I am the owner of this sword and feel very aggrieved that someone is trying to damage my E-Bay auction (which is still running). There is absolutely no doubt that this sword is original and my E-Bay feedback proves that I am an honest dealer. And I am also furious that my pictures (which are copyrighted) have been posted onto this web site without my permission - I am a member of SwordForum.com and this would never be allowed - I suggest that your moderators are not doing their job.

27th March 2005, 12:18 PM	#11
swordsmith Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 3	FALCHION SWORD Please delete the pictures as I did not give permission to use them - they are copyrighted and to be featured in a subsequent book. Regarding mentioning that this is a current E-Bay auction, I think that it is obvious which auction site that you are referring to - anybody who is remotely sensible will always look to E-Bay first - there really is no other auction site worth considering. If you had contacted me via E-Bay, I could have discussed the sword with you privately and answered any questions that you had. I would also have been happy to print my answers on this forum. I value my reputation on E-Bay and have spent many years establishing it.

26th March 2005, 09:36 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Looks real; certainly a real style; I think it's Swiss/German.

26th March 2005, 09:51 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I do not think it is caucasian gurda; they imitated the European marking. You got an original stuff: German/Austrian/N.Italian (Styrian). This is one of the cases when getting the "fake" would be better than the original

26th March 2005, 09:58 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	To me it looks like 17th century west European sabre. Many of them were produced and were in use in those days I think. And the hilt is very "natural" for such sabres too, so I wouldn't call it a rapier hilt. I can't tell what are this markings, maybe they are similiar to those used in Caucas as you suggest, I don't know, I haven't got any book on markings by now around me so I hope that other will help you with this. But I saw something similiar on other sabre (not the same thought but close) which was called Venetian. And I don't mean the markings of Genua "sickle", by the way which we could call similiar too . This one looks anytique and complete. I think it's quite good. But one thing is worrieng me. I just saw on one of the Italian auction house the edged weapons made in 19th century from so called historical period. Some of them looks very antique on photographs. Anyway, how to belive the photographs from now Ragards!

26th March 2005, 10:06 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	It's not a caucasian gurda, it looks to me like a real gurda - Genoese blade.

27th March 2005, 12:51 AM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, I'm far too ignorant to be sure of anything, but they look 100% like a caucasian gurda, and gurda is a copy of a genoese mark... However I heard that there used to be very similar marks on venetian swords.

27th March 2005, 12:04 PM	#10
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I dont know you, why would I wish to damage your auction? I am sure I didnt tell or ever give clue at all it is an ebay auction, and I even cared not to use any single word similar to your description words. I don't see any sign from the replies showing that other members learned its being on ebay from me or they used my topic to sabotage your auction. Pictures.ok. But they were already exhibited on a site which is widely open to public. I just thought to bid for it, and requested opinion thats all. If you really think it damaged your auction, I am sorry for that. I delete the pictures, and moderators can remove the topic completely.

27th March 2005, 12:49 PM	#12
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	I know our new member Swordsmith 4 years now and I know he is a very trusty person. I am very disappointed that he forced to enter in this forum in such situation. I think that the majority of us here didn’t want such situation. Moderators could not know in advance for the breaking of the rules. We can turn all this to a positive value if Swordsmith stay in this forum and help us with his great knowledge on edged weapons. So I warmly welcome him.

27th March 2005, 01:32 PM	#13
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Though I don't know what claims are being made in the selling (presumeably that it is Causcasian), it doesn't seem to me that anything bad or detracting has been said about this sword? Why so concerned? There's such a big deal over where it comes from? Someone please tell me what don't I know? Has reference to an auction been editted out? I don't see any? I certainly join in assuring Swordsmith of no ill intent; his dispute, it seems to me, can at most only be with Erlikhan, and only over the copyright on the photos, which Erlikhan didn't use commercially, so aside from making him cease and desist (done) I think that's all the recourse there is. Why so disturbed?

27th March 2005, 02:25 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Why are auction sales not open to free market conditions like any other product.Potential buyers can discuss any goods among other potential buyers.One would not buy many products without reading a review or other consumer guide,if that guide did not recommend the goods then is that not just hard cheese?In theory even capitalism works.Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 27th March 2005 at 03:17 PM.

27th March 2005, 02:42 PM	#16
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	There is a rule in this forum. We don’t discuss open auctions. I believe it is a fair rule so this forum will stay away of sellers intentions and bidders believes. We all learn here and I personally don’t like to read promotions or lies on a blade for financial reasons. No matter if this rule is good or bad, it gives to all of us the same status against Ebay auctions. A lot of times, before I bid, I wished I had the opinions of some experts we have here but I didn’t ever think to brake the rule. In this situation someone wanted the advantage against other bidders. He knew that it is not allowed to discuss open auctions, so he tried a “window” of the rule. I am not a lawyer to say if this is rule breaking or not. But I don’t find it gentlemanlike.

27th March 2005, 04:31 PM	#17
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	1. Concerning copyrights - without any permission, the images can be used for editorial (news) purposes - which obviously includes any discussions on this site (with some limitations). 2. There is a rule of not discussing active ebay auctions - the rule I personally greatly dislike, and the reason is that while I may be proficient enough in kindjals so I usually don't worry about buying on ebay (so if I would stick to kindjals I would love this rule), but I really like european swords, and unfortunately big and expensive books I have teach you nothing when it comes to how to distinguish fakes etc. The results is that I have to pay for my education through series of disappointment. Sincerely yours, Kirill Rivkin

27th March 2005, 07:09 PM	#22
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Maybe it's my English, and maybe I don't understand every nuance in the discussion, but if I do remember well, other threads were closed just after it came to light they are about continuing auction. If my words "Anyway, how to belive the photographs from now" (I hope not) were understood as a warning, I want to say they're not - it's only general thought and I was thinking about another obcjects actually. If so - I'm sorry. Anyway rules are rules but I don't want to decide instead of moderators - power is in your hands gentlemen we are only the users Regards!

27th March 2005, 07:15 PM	#23
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Swordsmith, I already deleted them .I didnt refer any auction at all. I even didnt say it was offered to me by someone. I dont think this forum is a service of ebay where every item should refer to ebay or I dont think ebay is the only market of weapons . I publish many items here and most are not acquired from ebay. Yannis, I and you dont like each other, everybody know this, and you try to use the situation personally.Childish .It is obvious even from the time of your message and the owner of the sword else than your continuing offense. It is ok, no problem. But if you slander me crazily without any proof to try to take advantage against other bidders (where I am even not a bidder ), in reverse I can accuse you that you expect profit from the auction and become disturbed from people critizising the item or you trying to make adversitement of the item by keeping active a topic, which's existence annoys you as far as you've said . Mine would not be more crazy than your comment. As I said, if it is against forum rules and so unethical, moderators can remove the topic completely or lock it to prevent it from being used for negative or positive purposes about an ongoing auction. regards Last edited by erlikhan; 27th March 2005 at 07:28 PM.