Zulu Patina question? Looks very recent.

Bill M · 11th September 2006, 10:08 PM

I just received this Zulu axe. The seller seems to be very knowledgeable about Zulu pieces. He sells a lot of them and has a 100% feedback.

He says

"Offered for sale from my private collection of Zulu artefacts is this magnificent antique Zulu axe (called ‘isizenze’ by the Zulus). The axe was collected from a Zulu hut in the battlefields area of Zululand, South Africa, and dates to the early 1900s.

"This stunning axe consists of a semi-circular metal blade riveted to a metal tang which is set into the long wooden haft. The wooden haft is carved from a single piece and the patina is virtually black from age. (my bold face) The haft measures about 38.5 inches long. The blade is about 6 inches in length and 3.5 inches deep. The metal blade is in good condition with surface pitting and a rusty/dark patina from the age of the piece.

"The axe was collected in the Rorke’s Drift/Isandlwana battlefields area of Zululand. It looks magnificent mounted on a wall and would certainly be a real focal point in any collection of Zulu or African artefacts and weapons.

"A genuine antique Zulu item, NOT a tourist piece!"

In hand the piece looks too new and pristine to be this old. There is absoultly no "wear patina."

I emailed him with this question and received the following:

"The axe handle is absolutely NOT new. The patina is as strong as you are likely to get - the black colouration of the wood IS the patina, developed through age and from storage in a hut, the original colour of the wood would have been significantly lighter than this. It is absolutely right. Trust me, I've handled hundreds of these items and this one came to me directly out of remote Zululand, it was not acquired from a dealer or an ebay purchase or anything like that."

Are there any knowledgeable Zulu collectors who would care to comment on this?

Bill M · 11th September 2006, 10:20 PM

"Offered for sale from my private collection of Zulu artefacts is this superb top-quality antique Zulu walking stick (called ‘iqhabanga’ by the Zulus). This iqhabanga in my opinion is the best I am currently offering on eBay, and the best you will have seen on sale for some time. I paid a hefty 3 figure sum for it, it is such a good quality piece.

"The stick I would guess dates to the mid 1900’s. It has been carved from a single piece of dark hardwood by a highly-skilled Zulu craftsman. This stick was found in a Zulu hut at Hlomo Hlomo, about 35km north-west of Nongoma, Zululand, South Africa.

"The stick has a small knobkerrie-style head, below which is a carved and fluted section in the Zulu ‘amasumpa’ (warts) style. The thin haft is carved perfectly straight with a smooth polished finish, and tapers to a point at the base of the stick. Top quality, lovely patina and feel to the whole piece, which is also well-balanced."

Same patina as the axe. Also pristine.

Would really appreciate knowing more about this "Zulu Patina."

I am trying to believe that he is for real. He has a good reputation, but I don't understand this black patina.

I have bought several other pieces from him that he says are lesser pieces and they do have nice brown wear patina.

Tim Simmons · 11th September 2006, 10:30 PM

Bill. I think I agree with your concerns. 1900 is not really Zulu wars though I do believe without searching one of Nelson Mandela's ancestors led a revolt around 1913. Compere the wood with that last stick I post. I hate to agree with you but I do feel the same.

Lew · 12th September 2006, 03:11 AM

Bill

Your axe seems to have the right patina but the stick strikes me as being newer the checkering would be more worn if it was that old and used constantly by the owner. Attached is an old Songye axe that was encrusted with some real nasty dirt and grime it has a similar patina to your axe but this is after I cleaned and waxed it.

Lew

Ian · 12th September 2006, 03:19 AM

Bill:

That stick has been turned on a lathe (probably a lathe was used for the checkering too). Did Zulus have lathes to turn wood in such precise ways?

Ian.

Bill M · 12th September 2006, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Bill:

That stick has been turned on a lathe (probably a lathe was used for the checkering too). Did Zulus have lathes to turn wood in such precise ways?

Ian.

Ian,

You're not in England are you?

I can see marks between the handle and the checkering that looks as though it was turned on a lathe.

This is a mystery to me. On one hand everything points to this being made yesterday with modern tools. However the seller seems really solid and it would be even stranger for a faker to make something so obviously new-looking. A good faker would have wonderful wear patina.

Do like the African traders and give the piece to a kid with some steel wool and a can of Johnson's paste Wax. It would look a hundred years old in a few days.

Bill M · 12th September 2006, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Bill

Your axe seems to have the right patina but the stick strikes me as being newer the checkering would be more worn if it was that old and used constantly by the owner.

Lew

How does the axe acquire the patina? Or the stick for that matter? There is little wear on the axe handle.

The stick looks very new. Do the Zulu just keep these in a cupboard while the wood turns black?

I don't understand. But I would like to

thanks for the reply Lew.

Tim Simmons · 12th September 2006, 06:26 PM

You could meet the seller half way. keep the axe which might be old. Return the staff which if I dare to be bold is not old in anyway. A patina of age and use would not leave radial patterns on the wood, and what is it that glistens under the ball.

Tim Simmons · 12th September 2006, 07:32 PM

Here are some pics of a one of my "black patina"? Zulu things, the easy one to take pics of. I know it is difficult to show this through a pic on a PC but I think there is quite a discernable difference.

The Double D · 12th September 2006, 08:50 PM

I forgot to upload the pictures this morning with my example of Zulu patination.

This is a 1960's maidens Milk pail.

The first taken with a flash to show surface texture. Notice the wood grain

The second availbable light to show color textures. Notice it is not uniform

There is one other characteristic that you can't see, this milk pail smells of wood smoke.

All the original wood that I have seen so far on Zulu weapons and tools is raw wood, light colored. Any dark wood has been "enhanced" for the antique market. None of the enhanced objects smell of smoke. It's a shame too as some of the objects would be very nice if left alone.

Another thing that strikes me about the axe, the rivet. I haven't seen any Zulu metal work yet, with a rivet. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just means I haven't seen it.

Ebay feed back. Positive feed back is almost meaningless. It means the goods were shipped out fast and the receiver liked them. It doesn't serve to verify authenticity. Hidden feedback is meaningful, it means buyer beware.

spiral · 12th September 2006, 09:27 PM

But such rivets are common on cheap Victorian herb choppers DD.

Here another one higher quality one posted by Flavio still clearly marked...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=herb

So either the Zulus used herb choppers as axes? or at some time thiers been at least one cottage industry turning these out?

Or several dodgy dealers into woodwork?

A cabinet maker can duplicate age very easy & match any orignal piece of timber as far as the eye can see.

Spiral

katana · 12th September 2006, 11:09 PM

Hi Bill, I am no expert.....when you first posted this thread...I viewed the pictures and my 'gut feeling' is that both items are relatively new. I have returned to them several times and the 'feeling' has not changed.
I agree that the stick looks too perfect, consistant colour, no wear marks on the raised parts of the chequered pattern, no dinks to the knob and the lathe (?) working marks on the smoother sections.
The axe, also raises concerns, of which Spiral and others have pointed out. Cracks in wood are not always the result of age, wood that is not properly seasoned will develop such cracks.
If the axe was forged in Africa, it makes no sense in using a rivet. Firstly, it is unnecesary complication, a hole would have to formed in the blade, the supporting shaft would require two coresponding holes, and a rivet forged. And secondly, the resulting 'ensemble' would be weaker compared to a similar axe head with a tang forged in 'one piece'.(which would be much easier and quicker to manufacture.) So to me the rivet suggests 'mass production'....

my 10 cents worth....

Ferguson · 13th September 2006, 11:59 AM

Bill, I have a walking stick very very similar to that. It was bought 2 years ago in a shop in Myrtle Beach, SC that sells African crafts. It's a very nice stick, but new. Don't know about the ax, but what kind of collector would have a piece with red rust? Send them back. You'll never be happy with them.

Steve

11th September 2006, 10:08 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Zulu Patina question? Looks very recent. I just received this Zulu axe. The seller seems to be very knowledgeable about Zulu pieces. He sells a lot of them and has a 100% feedback. He says "Offered for sale from my private collection of Zulu artefacts is this magnificent antique Zulu axe (called ‘isizenze’ by the Zulus). The axe was collected from a Zulu hut in the battlefields area of Zululand, South Africa, and dates to the early 1900s. "This stunning axe consists of a semi-circular metal blade riveted to a metal tang which is set into the long wooden haft. The wooden haft is carved from a single piece and the patina is virtually black from age. (my bold face) The haft measures about 38.5 inches long. The blade is about 6 inches in length and 3.5 inches deep. The metal blade is in good condition with surface pitting and a rusty/dark patina from the age of the piece. "The axe was collected in the Rorke’s Drift/Isandlwana battlefields area of Zululand. It looks magnificent mounted on a wall and would certainly be a real focal point in any collection of Zulu or African artefacts and weapons. "A genuine antique Zulu item, NOT a tourist piece!" In hand the piece looks too new and pristine to be this old. There is absoultly no "wear patina." I emailed him with this question and received the following: "The axe handle is absolutely NOT new. The patina is as strong as you are likely to get - the black colouration of the wood IS the patina, developed through age and from storage in a hut, the original colour of the wood would have been significantly lighter than this. It is absolutely right. Trust me, I've handled hundreds of these items and this one came to me directly out of remote Zululand, it was not acquired from a dealer or an ebay purchase or anything like that." Are there any knowledgeable Zulu collectors who would care to comment on this? Attached Images

11th September 2006, 10:20 PM	#2
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Another Zulu piece, same seller "Offered for sale from my private collection of Zulu artefacts is this superb top-quality antique Zulu walking stick (called ‘iqhabanga’ by the Zulus). This iqhabanga in my opinion is the best I am currently offering on eBay, and the best you will have seen on sale for some time. I paid a hefty 3 figure sum for it, it is such a good quality piece. "The stick I would guess dates to the mid 1900’s. It has been carved from a single piece of dark hardwood by a highly-skilled Zulu craftsman. This stick was found in a Zulu hut at Hlomo Hlomo, about 35km north-west of Nongoma, Zululand, South Africa. "The stick has a small knobkerrie-style head, below which is a carved and fluted section in the Zulu ‘amasumpa’ (warts) style. The thin haft is carved perfectly straight with a smooth polished finish, and tapers to a point at the base of the stick. Top quality, lovely patina and feel to the whole piece, which is also well-balanced." Same patina as the axe. Also pristine. Would really appreciate knowing more about this "Zulu Patina." I am trying to believe that he is for real. He has a good reputation, but I don't understand this black patina. I have bought several other pieces from him that he says are lesser pieces and they do have nice brown wear patina. Attached Images

12th September 2006, 03:11 AM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Bill Your axe seems to have the right patina but the stick strikes me as being newer the checkering would be more worn if it was that old and used constantly by the owner. Attached is an old Songye axe that was encrusted with some real nasty dirt and grime it has a similar patina to your axe but this is after I cleaned and waxed it. Lew Attached Images

11th September 2006, 10:30 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Bill. I think I agree with your concerns. 1900 is not really Zulu wars though I do believe without searching one of Nelson Mandela's ancestors led a revolt around 1913. Compere the wood with that last stick I post. I hate to agree with you but I do feel the same.

12th September 2006, 03:19 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Bill: That stick has been turned on a lathe (probably a lathe was used for the checkering too). Did Zulus have lathes to turn wood in such precise ways? Ian.

12th September 2006, 06:26 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	You could meet the seller half way. keep the axe which might be old. Return the staff which if I dare to be bold is not old in anyway. A patina of age and use would not leave radial patterns on the wood, and what is it that glistens under the ball.

12th September 2006, 07:32 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Here are some pics of a one of my "black patina"? Zulu things, the easy one to take pics of. I know it is difficult to show this through a pic on a PC but I think there is quite a discernable difference.

12th September 2006, 08:50 PM	#10
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	I forgot to upload the pictures this morning with my example of Zulu patination. This is a 1960's maidens Milk pail. The first taken with a flash to show surface texture. Notice the wood grain The second availbable light to show color textures. Notice it is not uniform There is one other characteristic that you can't see, this milk pail smells of wood smoke. All the original wood that I have seen so far on Zulu weapons and tools is raw wood, light colored. Any dark wood has been "enhanced" for the antique market. None of the enhanced objects smell of smoke. It's a shame too as some of the objects would be very nice if left alone. Another thing that strikes me about the axe, the rivet. I haven't seen any Zulu metal work yet, with a rivet. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just means I haven't seen it. Ebay feed back. Positive feed back is almost meaningless. It means the goods were shipped out fast and the receiver liked them. It doesn't serve to verify authenticity. Hidden feedback is meaningful, it means buyer beware.

12th September 2006, 09:27 PM	#11
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	But such rivets are common on cheap Victorian herb choppers DD. Here another one higher quality one posted by Flavio still clearly marked... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=herb So either the Zulus used herb choppers as axes? or at some time thiers been at least one cottage industry turning these out? Or several dodgy dealers into woodwork? A cabinet maker can duplicate age very easy & match any orignal piece of timber as far as the eye can see. Spiral

12th September 2006, 11:09 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Bill, I am no expert.....when you first posted this thread...I viewed the pictures and my 'gut feeling' is that both items are relatively new. I have returned to them several times and the 'feeling' has not changed. I agree that the stick looks too perfect, consistant colour, no wear marks on the raised parts of the chequered pattern, no dinks to the knob and the lathe (?) working marks on the smoother sections. The axe, also raises concerns, of which Spiral and others have pointed out. Cracks in wood are not always the result of age, wood that is not properly seasoned will develop such cracks. If the axe was forged in Africa, it makes no sense in using a rivet. Firstly, it is unnecesary complication, a hole would have to formed in the blade, the supporting shaft would require two coresponding holes, and a rivet forged. And secondly, the resulting 'ensemble' would be weaker compared to a similar axe head with a tang forged in 'one piece'.(which would be much easier and quicker to manufacture.) So to me the rivet suggests 'mass production'.... my 10 cents worth....

13th September 2006, 11:59 AM	#13
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Bill, I have a walking stick very very similar to that. It was bought 2 years ago in a shop in Myrtle Beach, SC that sells African crafts. It's a very nice stick, but new. Don't know about the ax, but what kind of collector would have a piece with red rust? Send them back. You'll never be happy with them. Steve