Dahb Thai, Japanese swords and hybrids

PUFF · 30th January 2007, 12:13 PM

http://www.konrakmeed.com/webboard/u...?showtopic=423

We just had another seminar on last weekend. Here are some pics from the meeting. The meeting was held in the Japanese school of language and culture in Bangkok.

Dahb from Lanna area (northern Thailand)

... from Utaradit, Pisanulok area (sitting btween northern-central area of Thailand)

... from Aythaya city, 17-18th cent.

... Ratanakosin period (19-20th cent), noted that the lowest one 's executioner's (early 20th, http://www.gun.in.th/webboard/index.php?topic=9328.30)

... from southern area of Thailand

PUFF · 30th January 2007, 12:18 PM

Then, the hybrids, Siamese-made weapons which are influenced by japanese ones.

And some Japanese examples

Many thanks in advance to Pol. Lt. Wabma for his photos. Mr. Bancha for the organizing. Questions and comments are welcome.

Mark · 30th January 2007, 03:05 PM

Great stuff, Puff! (By the way, one photo in the last message didn't post properly). The photos raise a couple questions for me.

First, of in the ones from Utaradit, Pisanulok area, the top two look like top-most of the Ratanakosin-era dahb. Is this because they are all both from Utaradit and the Ratanakosin era, or is there some feature distinguishing the two?

Second, in the photo of the Utaradit dahb, what distinguishes the lowest one as an exceutioner's sword? Is it the heaviness of the blade, the hua, or the handle? Maybe something else? It is difficult to make out anything of the exceutioner's sword in the photos of the linked thread (beware, people, they are very graphic).

Finally, in the last photo of dahb from southern Thailand, the first and third I had thought were a Lanna (i.e., northern) style, based on the pommel and ferrule (area next to the blade). Similar swords are shown in Punjabhan, Silverware in Thailand (1991), as I recall from the National Museum collection, and are identified as being from Lanna. There was no discussion in Punjabhan regarding the distinguishing features, so my identification of this pommel and ferrule style with Lanna is just based on comparing the various photos and noting those features that were found consistently in the dahb attributed to Lanna, but not in other dahb.

These dabh meeting you have been holding have been generating some very interesting and exciting new (for me) information. If I can get to Thailand at the right time, I would love to attend one.

DhaDha · 30th January 2007, 11:39 PM

Can't thank you enough...

PUFF · 31st January 2007, 05:40 AM

Hi, Mark, all pics looks ok for me. Please let me know which one's not working and I will repost it.

Your first question 's about similarity between Dahb Utaradit and one from early Rattanakosin era. Geographically, Utaradit and Pisanulok (BLUE) are major cities southern of Lanna (GREEN). The cities were self-govern under Siamese capitol (RED) 's power in both Ayuthaya and Rattanakosin periods. The sword labeled as Dahb from Rattanakosin era (the top one) shared blade similarity with ones from late Ayuthaya era. It 's hypothesized that they have same craftsmanship (same smith guild or linage). Although ones from southern area of Lanna (Utaradit-Pisanulok) have similar art (decoration, style, tip style) but they are different in terms of profile and balance. Its blade profile 's somewhat influenced by Lanna 's blade, narrow "waist", highly-taper-spine. And we agree to put such Dahb in another catagory than Lanna, Ayuthaya or Rattanakosin, even the blades are from late Ayuthaya-early Rattanakosin era.

PUFF · 31st January 2007, 05:57 AM

The executioner 's Dahb 's the one labeled as Rattanakosin period's.

It 's single-handed Dahb with CG toward the tip (aka, COP moved to about 1/3 from the tip instead of 1-2 inches as most of Dahbs in the same period). It 's overall weight 's just a little heavier than regular ones. The dahb 's obtained from executioner 's family and there are references that the Dahb did the job.

I rated the following pics as violence ones, please click the links to view them.

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/3006/5fa1.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/chomjan/04a.jpg

30th January 2007, 12:13 PM	#1
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Dahb Thai, Japanese swords and hybrids http://www.konrakmeed.com/webboard/u...?showtopic=423 We just had another seminar on last weekend. Here are some pics from the meeting. The meeting was held in the Japanese school of language and culture in Bangkok. Dahb from Lanna area (northern Thailand) ... from Utaradit, Pisanulok area (sitting btween northern-central area of Thailand) ... from Aythaya city, 17-18th cent. ... Ratanakosin period (19-20th cent), noted that the lowest one 's executioner's (early 20th, http://www.gun.in.th/webboard/index.php?topic=9328.30) ... from southern area of Thailand

31st January 2007, 05:40 AM	#5
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Hi, Mark, all pics looks ok for me. Please let me know which one's not working and I will repost it. Your first question 's about similarity between Dahb Utaradit and one from early Rattanakosin era. Geographically, Utaradit and Pisanulok (BLUE) are major cities southern of Lanna (GREEN). The cities were self-govern under Siamese capitol (RED) 's power in both Ayuthaya and Rattanakosin periods. The sword labeled as Dahb from Rattanakosin era (the top one) shared blade similarity with ones from late Ayuthaya era. It 's hypothesized that they have same craftsmanship (same smith guild or linage). Although ones from southern area of Lanna (Utaradit-Pisanulok) have similar art (decoration, style, tip style) but they are different in terms of profile and balance. Its blade profile 's somewhat influenced by Lanna 's blade, narrow "waist", highly-taper-spine. And we agree to put such Dahb in another catagory than Lanna, Ayuthaya or Rattanakosin, even the blades are from late Ayuthaya-early Rattanakosin era. Attached Images

30th January 2007, 12:18 PM	#2
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Then, the hybrids, Siamese-made weapons which are influenced by japanese ones. And some Japanese examples Many thanks in advance to Pol. Lt. Wabma for his photos. Mr. Bancha for the organizing. Questions and comments are welcome.

30th January 2007, 03:05 PM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Great stuff, Puff! (By the way, one photo in the last message didn't post properly). The photos raise a couple questions for me. First, of in the ones from Utaradit, Pisanulok area, the top two look like top-most of the Ratanakosin-era dahb. Is this because they are all both from Utaradit and the Ratanakosin era, or is there some feature distinguishing the two? Second, in the photo of the Utaradit dahb, what distinguishes the lowest one as an exceutioner's sword? Is it the heaviness of the blade, the hua, or the handle? Maybe something else? It is difficult to make out anything of the exceutioner's sword in the photos of the linked thread (beware, people, they are very graphic). Finally, in the last photo of dahb from southern Thailand, the first and third I had thought were a Lanna (i.e., northern) style, based on the pommel and ferrule (area next to the blade). Similar swords are shown in Punjabhan, Silverware in Thailand (1991), as I recall from the National Museum collection, and are identified as being from Lanna. There was no discussion in Punjabhan regarding the distinguishing features, so my identification of this pommel and ferrule style with Lanna is just based on comparing the various photos and noting those features that were found consistently in the dahb attributed to Lanna, but not in other dahb. These dabh meeting you have been holding have been generating some very interesting and exciting new (for me) information. If I can get to Thailand at the right time, I would love to attend one.

30th January 2007, 11:39 PM	#4
DhaDha Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 165	Can't thank you enough...

31st January 2007, 05:57 AM	#6
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	The executioner 's Dahb 's the one labeled as Rattanakosin period's. It 's single-handed Dahb with CG toward the tip (aka, COP moved to about 1/3 from the tip instead of 1-2 inches as most of Dahbs in the same period). It 's overall weight 's just a little heavier than regular ones. The dahb 's obtained from executioner 's family and there are references that the Dahb did the job. I rated the following pics as violence ones, please click the links to view them. http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/3006/5fa1.jpg http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/chomjan/04a.jpg