My first Dha ....a few questions please

katana · 11th November 2007, 07:29 PM

Hi
very pleased to have added a Dha to my collection

.

The blade is approx 7mm thick distally tapering to approx 1.5 mm. Blade is 20" long. Has a fuller with scroll work at either end (no pics ...I haven't received it yet). I noticed later, whilst 'messing around' (contrast, brightness etc) with the pictures of the blade that there seems to be 3 brass/copper coloured inserts near to the 'tip'....please what is the significance of this

The wooden handle is bound with plaited grass/rattan .... no scabbard, but seems to be a good honest, functional Dha.

The seller stated that this was a 'bring back' and had been in the family for some 60 years and was told it was a 'head hunting' sword.

Could anyone help ID country of origin, possible age etc. ? Thank you kindly

Regards David

ps The sword blade may look a little 'odd' as it was photographed on a bath towel.

Battara · 11th November 2007, 07:58 PM

I would guess at talismanic - seen similar decor on other Buddhist influenced pieces. Mark Bowditch or others from the "Dafia" would be of great help....

Mark · 12th November 2007, 03:51 PM

I think I'll have to wait for better photos before I can give any solid information. I have seen tip inserts like this on a few dha, but I have no idea what they might represent. They can be single, double, or as in this case triple (I have three, do I hear four?

). A talismanic function is possible, but I have no solid evidence that copper or brass, of which these inserts as well as the ones found along the spine of some dha are made, have any particular talismanic function. I am reluctant to say it is talismanic, because its a bit like the way archeoplogists call anything they can't figure out the purpose of a "ritual object."

Burmese? Thai? My guess is Shan (northern Tai).

katana · 13th November 2007, 12:41 PM

Thank you both, Battara and Mark, for your comments.

Talismatic reasons did 'spring to mind' but, as Mark has commented, this term is often used as an 'answer all'. Hopefully the Dha will arrive very soon and I can post better information and pics.

Would the blade be etched when owned in its native country ?
What wood would the scabbard be made from ?

Regards David

Andrew · 13th November 2007, 02:51 PM

Nice first dha, katana. I think the brass inserts are just for looks.

(Let's apply Occam's Razor until better information becomes available

).

No etch traditionally. I do lightly etch/polish my finer dha, however, because I like the look.

Your scabbard would likely have been teak bound with rattan strips.

Mark · 13th November 2007, 03:26 PM

Here's one with two dots.

katana · 16th November 2007, 09:08 PM

Thank you Andrew and Mark for your replies.

It has arrived and has not disappointed

Blade is well made and has some age and seems to be laminated but not certain. Minor problem in that the blade is slightly loose and with some pressure could be pulled out of the hilt. Feels nice in the hand, balance toward the tip.
Very fine rattan strips are plaited and then wound around the rattan handle which has a brass 'ferrule'. Using a magnet ...the tang finishes at the same point as the rattan binding.

The blade is 'wedge shaped' in cross section, the spine rather than being flat has been nicely filed into a 'V' (in cross section) with two brass inserts and incised cross hatching. Looks to be a chiselled shallow groove either side of the blade (fuller ?) Some 'scroll like' decoration either end of the 'line' pattern and the three brass inserts at the tip.

Comments and help with possible age and/or clarification that this is Shan would be great, thank you.

Regards David

kronckew · 17th November 2007, 11:44 AM

hi katana,

nice blade, mine is without the inset dots, and does not have fullers and has a flat spine, but the spine grooves and inlays are very similar. mine has (from hilt) 2grooves, brass inlay, three grooves, 1.5in gap, 2 grooves, 1.5 in gap, 3 grooves, brass inlay, three grooves, 1 in. gap, 4 grooves.

looks like half your grips rattan rings are missing, they will be fun to replace. if you are not into rattan work, braided string wrapped around & oil varnished could look very similar without being permanent. blade could be re-set into the hilt with cutlers cement (or resin) (Linky ) or pitch, y'all could use nepali laha which is pine rosin, some nice powdered dry dung (for the fibre content) and can be easily heated for removal/re-installation - smells wonderful when heated

. depends on how far you want to go. you could of course give it a light clean & oiling/waxing & leave it alone.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 17th November 2007, 12:12 PM

Katana,
I'd have to agree with Mark on this one Shan or Northern Thailand the spine filed in that shape is something I've only seen on swords from those areas, most of the swords in Central Thailand either have a flat or rounded spine.

Many have the cross-hatch and inserts and while there may be some significance to three of each (most I've seen have three) and the Thais believe 3 is a lucky number (at least thats what the gamblers keep telling me) actually all odd numbers are important, can't tell you why but if you look at the nobles umbrella they are all in odd numbers 3, 5, 7, 9 depending on rank. The Erawan (elephant god) is depicted with three heads, Nagas again start with three and go up by odd numbers depending on rank.

The one Mark shows in all in twos (maybe that was the original owners lucky number) but I still doubt that their placement on the weapon is more than decoration.

I've seen fullers running 2/3 to 3/4 length on central Thai swords but they are usually very thin and not deep, yours is more pronounced and with the wonderful scroll work again leads me to believe North.

The handle is very common but does not look Northern Thai. I've seen these in great numbers in Central Thailand (i'll have another look after I finish this) but I'm wondering if it got rehilted, either way the braided grass rings would have gone all the way down to the pommel and if the tang does in fact extend that far into the hilt it would longer than most I've seen dismantled.

Either way it is definitely a true ethnographic weapon and a nice start for someone on the road to the Dha(K) side

Dan

wilked aka Khun Deng · 17th November 2007, 12:23 PM

One more note as reread the thread. there is also a ranking to the metals used.
None
Brass
Silver
Gold
Gold with enameling

If I remember right there was actually an old court decree that specified which rank you had to be before you could wear each - course I got that from a museum guide at the Royal Palace and can't confirm, however he was adamant about the fact that gold with enameling was reserved for members of the royal family.

I have a gold ring that has my unit's crest on it, I used to have the same ring in silver, but when I became an Officer my wife insisted that I had to give it to my son and wear a gold one now

Dan

katana · 17th November 2007, 07:59 PM

Thank you for the great info Kronckew, its appreciated

What do you know of rattan braiding....have you done any? Any tips.

Hi Dan, thank you for the additional, interesting information. I am inclined to agree that the blade has been re-hilted, there seems to be a mismatch with the patina of the blade and that of the handle (the seller assures me that this has been in the family for 60 years so will assume the hilt is at least that old.) Could this blade be late 19thC - early 20 th C ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilked aka Khun Deng

............. and a nice start for someone on the road to the Dha(K) side

Dan

Yo(Dha) says 'nice sword for collection you have, but ... for ultimate ....light sabre get you must'

11th November 2007, 07:29 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	My first Dha ....a few questions please Hi very pleased to have added a Dha to my collection . The blade is approx 7mm thick distally tapering to approx 1.5 mm. Blade is 20" long. Has a fuller with scroll work at either end (no pics ...I haven't received it yet). I noticed later, whilst 'messing around' (contrast, brightness etc) with the pictures of the blade that there seems to be 3 brass/copper coloured inserts near to the 'tip'....please what is the significance of this The wooden handle is bound with plaited grass/rattan .... no scabbard, but seems to be a good honest, functional Dha. The seller stated that this was a 'bring back' and had been in the family for some 60 years and was told it was a 'head hunting' sword. Could anyone help ID country of origin, possible age etc. ? Thank you kindly Regards David ps The sword blade may look a little 'odd' as it was photographed on a bath towel. Attached Images

16th November 2007, 09:08 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thank you Andrew and Mark for your replies. It has arrived and has not disappointed Blade is well made and has some age and seems to be laminated but not certain. Minor problem in that the blade is slightly loose and with some pressure could be pulled out of the hilt. Feels nice in the hand, balance toward the tip. Very fine rattan strips are plaited and then wound around the rattan handle which has a brass 'ferrule'. Using a magnet ...the tang finishes at the same point as the rattan binding. The blade is 'wedge shaped' in cross section, the spine rather than being flat has been nicely filed into a 'V' (in cross section) with two brass inserts and incised cross hatching. Looks to be a chiselled shallow groove either side of the blade (fuller ?) Some 'scroll like' decoration either end of the 'line' pattern and the three brass inserts at the tip. Comments and help with possible age and/or clarification that this is Shan would be great, thank you. Regards David Attached Images

17th November 2007, 11:44 AM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	hi katana, nice blade, mine is without the inset dots, and does not have fullers and has a flat spine, but the spine grooves and inlays are very similar. mine has (from hilt) 2grooves, brass inlay, three grooves, 1.5in gap, 2 grooves, 1.5 in gap, 3 grooves, brass inlay, three grooves, 1 in. gap, 4 grooves. looks like half your grips rattan rings are missing, they will be fun to replace. if you are not into rattan work, braided string wrapped around & oil varnished could look very similar without being permanent. blade could be re-set into the hilt with cutlers cement (or resin) (Linky ) or pitch, y'all could use nepali laha which is pine rosin, some nice powdered dry dung (for the fibre content) and can be easily heated for removal/re-installation - smells wonderful when heated . depends on how far you want to go. you could of course give it a light clean & oiling/waxing & leave it alone. Last edited by kronckew; 17th November 2007 at 12:02 PM.

17th November 2007, 12:12 PM	#9
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Shan or Northern Thailand Katana, I'd have to agree with Mark on this one Shan or Northern Thailand the spine filed in that shape is something I've only seen on swords from those areas, most of the swords in Central Thailand either have a flat or rounded spine. Many have the cross-hatch and inserts and while there may be some significance to three of each (most I've seen have three) and the Thais believe 3 is a lucky number (at least thats what the gamblers keep telling me) actually all odd numbers are important, can't tell you why but if you look at the nobles umbrella they are all in odd numbers 3, 5, 7, 9 depending on rank. The Erawan (elephant god) is depicted with three heads, Nagas again start with three and go up by odd numbers depending on rank. The one Mark shows in all in twos (maybe that was the original owners lucky number) but I still doubt that their placement on the weapon is more than decoration. I've seen fullers running 2/3 to 3/4 length on central Thai swords but they are usually very thin and not deep, yours is more pronounced and with the wonderful scroll work again leads me to believe North. The handle is very common but does not look Northern Thai. I've seen these in great numbers in Central Thailand (i'll have another look after I finish this) but I'm wondering if it got rehilted, either way the braided grass rings would have gone all the way down to the pommel and if the tang does in fact extend that far into the hilt it would longer than most I've seen dismantled. Either way it is definitely a true ethnographic weapon and a nice start for someone on the road to the Dha(K) side Dan

17th November 2007, 12:23 PM	#10
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	One more note One more note as reread the thread. there is also a ranking to the metals used. None Brass Silver Gold Gold with enameling If I remember right there was actually an old court decree that specified which rank you had to be before you could wear each - course I got that from a museum guide at the Royal Palace and can't confirm, however he was adamant about the fact that gold with enameling was reserved for members of the royal family. I have a gold ring that has my unit's crest on it, I used to have the same ring in silver, but when I became an Officer my wife insisted that I had to give it to my son and wear a gold one now Dan

11th November 2007, 07:58 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	I would guess at talismanic - seen similar decor on other Buddhist influenced pieces. Mark Bowditch or others from the "Dafia" would be of great help....

12th November 2007, 03:51 PM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I think I'll have to wait for better photos before I can give any solid information. I have seen tip inserts like this on a few dha, but I have no idea what they might represent. They can be single, double, or as in this case triple (I have three, do I hear four? ). A talismanic function is possible, but I have no solid evidence that copper or brass, of which these inserts as well as the ones found along the spine of some dha are made, have any particular talismanic function. I am reluctant to say it is talismanic, because its a bit like the way archeoplogists call anything they can't figure out the purpose of a "ritual object." Burmese? Thai? My guess is Shan (northern Tai).

13th November 2007, 12:41 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thank you both, Battara and Mark, for your comments. Talismatic reasons did 'spring to mind' but, as Mark has commented, this term is often used as an 'answer all'. Hopefully the Dha will arrive very soon and I can post better information and pics. Would the blade be etched when owned in its native country ? What wood would the scabbard be made from ? Regards David

13th November 2007, 02:51 PM	#5
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Nice first dha, katana. I think the brass inserts are just for looks. (Let's apply Occam's Razor until better information becomes available ). No etch traditionally. I do lightly etch/polish my finer dha, however, because I like the look. Your scabbard would likely have been teak bound with rattan strips.

13th November 2007, 03:26 PM	#6
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Here's one with two dots.