Pietro Hernandez swordmaker

[ulfberth]

Does anyone have more info on swordmaker Pietro Hernandez ?
All i could find online is https://www.flickr.com/photos/thoog/...57607963343849

Blade: Spain (Pietro Hernandez), Toledo; Hilt: Italy (possibly Belluno), 1580-1610

I saw this swordmakers name on a hilt that looked much like this one, altough the shape of the hilt that is. The one i saw was plain , no etching but some left overs of guilding.
All info on Pietro Hernandez is most welcome.

Thanks in advance

Ulfberth

[fernando]

In a descriptive catalogue of the Real Armeria de Madrid (1898) two sword blades (G202 and G203) are described to be made by Pedro Hernandez, a name not cited by Palomares or Rodrigues del Canto, but with a sword in the Dresden Museum, with the punction of Toledo.
The Pedro Hernandez marks in the Madrid blades are a crowned F and a crucifix.
The Italian sounding name Pietro (and not Pedro) figuring in some blades out there could be from someone copying this 17th century Toledo master.

.

[Jim McDougall]

As well noted by Fernando, the name Pedro in Italian parlance is Pietro.
The crucifix mark was used by some German makers (Coll, Clele) as well as Pedro Hernandez, who was of the famed Toledo family, whose patriarch was Sebastian (worked 1570-1600, but still living c.1637 (Mann, Wallace Coll. p.281).
His son Pedro worked c.1610-1630, while younger Johannes Hernandez worked around 1660 ("Rapiers" Eric Valentine, 1968, p.67).

The joining of Spanish and German names well illustrates the presence of German swordsmiths in Spain much in the manner of their presence in England.

As noted, many hilts, particularly rapiers, were fashioned in North Italy, and both the Solingen makers as well as the Spain based counterparts produced blades with spellings and entire surnames reflecting languages accordingly.

There were blades with Sebastian's name produced later spuriously (his genuine blades typically had his crowned 'Z' and the typically seen 'OT' and crescent moon which were known Toledo marks (Mann, op. cit. p.281)Spanish makers puncones were characteristically on ricasso.

Hopefully these details might assist in the assessment of this sword and its elements.

All best regards,
Jim

[ulfberth]

fernando and Jim, thanks for your comments.

I remember the sword having stamps but they were not so clear however one of them looked like a half moon.

Pietro Hernandez is not a name i saw before, the different spelling of the same name seems te be verry common on blades of that period.
Andrea Ferrara is sush an example the same goes for antonio pichinnino and i'm sure there are more examples.
In case of Andrea Ferrara i heard that some used name a quality mark on the blade, perhaps some motives were commercial.
The spelling of names in those day's was as the were prenounced, in other words the wrote it down as they heard it.
Perhaps it would be interesting to make a list of different way's of spelling of sword makers names on blades.

kind regards

Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

The crescent moon stamp is believed to have originated in Spain and likely some sort of collectively used stamp which augmented the makers mark, perhaps in a guild type sense.
With makers names, in many cases the well renowned names, especially from Toledo, were spuriously used for many generations, and in a way became rather 'brand' names . The famed Sahagun name of smiths of Toledo were used in Solingen in that sense, most of the blades destined for centers in Europe. The Andrea Ferara phenomenon is another case, with most of these blades destined from Germany to Scottish customers. It has been widely disputed whether there was such a person as Andrea Ferara, or whether this was a contrived term for quality (ferara= iron; Andrea, Andrew= good, true) . The Scots associated the term with their patron saint St Andrew.

As you know, Ulfbehrt has similar connotation perspectives and while possibly a workshop name, is not generally held to be a single makers name as I understand.

The origins and meanings of these names are an ever debated and studied subject.

As noted, spellings were often varied as literacy as well as applying names by those who were not necessarily speakers of the language were mitigating factors.

[ulfberth]

Hello Jim,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge I just learned something new.

That's the first time I heard the meaning of the Andrea Ferara name and the more I think about it the more it seems possible that is was a brand instead of a name.
I mean thank about it what are the odds that " Ferdinand Porches means " German sportscar " huh ?

I checked the blade today and there is a moon slightly visible on both sides of the ricasso and a stamp I can't define, also there is writing in capital letters on the side of the ricasso and on both sides.

Kind regards

Dirk

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As well noted by Fernando, the name Pedro in Italian parlance is Pietro.
The crucifix mark was used by some German makers (Coll, Clele) as well as Pedro Hernandez, who was of the famed Toledo family, whose patriarch was Sebastian (worked 1570-1600, but still living c.1637 (Mann, Wallace Coll. p.281).
His son Pedro worked c.1610-1630, while younger Johannes Hernandez worked around 1660 ("Rapiers" Eric Valentine, 1968, p.67).

Well Jim, i must confess i am astonished .
From the first to the last data i have on the Hernandez sword makers, i have no trace of the family being composed as you reveal.
In Palomar's nomina, a work highly regarded by the several Spanish specialists, only two Hernandez are mentioned as being family; Sebastian the elder (el viejo) and Sebastian the younger (el mozo). I can find no family link between both Pedro and Johannes (Juan, for the matter) and old Sebastian.
Go figure
Furthermore, the marks of Pedro Hernandez in the blades kept in the Royal Armeria are rather different from those of Sebastian elder and younger, shown in Palomar nomina and elsewhere. Also surprising that the catalogue author Count Don Juan didn't recognize Pedro Hernandez as belonging to the famous Hernandez family.
On the other hand, reading James Mann's assumption that Pedro and Juan belong in Sebastian's family and paging the various quoted examples, i find such allusions a bit erratic. I hope Sir James pardons my irreverent ignorance

[Gavin Nugent]

One from the past for reference;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=Hernandez

Post # 72 I show another sword by a "Hernandez"

Gavin

[fernando]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

One from the past for reference;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=Hernandez

Post # 72 I show another sword by a "Hernandez"

Gavin

Such a beautiful blade, Gavin.
But assuming it was forged by the real Hernandez, it is remounted in a hilt at least one centuty later ... the so called 'boca de caballo' (horse mouth)
... if i am not talking nonsense .