Sword of a Giant ( hormonal)

ariel · 25th May 2019, 06:24 PM

For those of you who do not know me well, in addition to studying swords I also have to make a living:-). My job consists mainly of research in pituitary hormones in humans, especially growth hormone (GH).
A good chunk of my time is occupied by taking care of patients with a disease called acromegaly: they have pituitary tumors producing a lot of GH and, as a result, growing excessively and uncontrollably. If a tumor appears in childhood, when the bones can still get longer, they become giants. But even if the disease starts in adulthood and they cannot grow taller, they still can grow "wider", developing coarse facial features and enormous hands and feet.
Here are pics of the most famous giant acromegalic, Andre the Giant, showing his overall height and the size of his hands ( vs. Mohammed Ali's)

OK, that's the introduction.

This was why I bought this Khyber: here are pics of it in comparison with two " standard " ones.
Blades of standard khybers are ~ 20-23 "
The " giant" one sports a blade that is 34 1/2 " long.

Well, one can say that the owner ordered such a monster simply because he had " penis envy"

However, let's measure the grip, as a reflection of the size of his hands.

Those of standard khybers are 3 1/2 and 3 3/4" in length
The " giant" one's is full 5". He must have had rather enormous hands.

Thus, I would guess that this khyber belonged to an Afghani man who suffered from gigantism/acromegaly. If so, he would have been very impressive as a ceremonial guardsman, but not very useful as a fighter: usually, these patients have very big pituitary tumors compressing their eye nerves and causing loss of vision, their high GH causes awful damage to the joints and the mobility is grossly diminished, and they also often have damage to the pituitary and lack cortisol, thyroid hormone and testosterone, making them very tired, fatigued and weak. if untreated, they also die very young as a result of even minor infection. Virtually all circus giants of the 19th- early 20th century died before 40 y.o. "The Irish Giant" Charles Byrne and " The Alton Giant" Robert Wadlow both died at 22.

Now you understand why I got this monster: it blends my job ( study of swords) with my side hobby ( endocrinology) :-)

David R · 25th May 2019, 07:54 PM

Wow, that is fascinating... both the intro and the blade. Thanks for sharing.

fernando · 25th May 2019, 08:15 PM

Superb example ... and interesting subject, Dr. Barkin.
In a different perspective, i would say this giant navaja was only for show off, and not destined to a customer with a GH anomaly

.

.

Jim McDougall · 25th May 2019, 08:47 PM

WOW! Now this is a dramatic example of contrast in view of the current thread discussing smaller grips and weaponry found in Indian edged weapons.

Ariel, I would like to join in thanking you for the fascinating introduction and explanation of your career in medical research, which is most important. Your contributions to advancing knowledge and helping people with these maladies are commendable and I hope well recognized with the gratitude deserved.

While the supposition toward this rather large 'Khyber' being for someone so afflicted with acromegaly is of course possible, it does seem that I have been told that Afghan ethnic groups are often of larger size, and indeed with large hands. I hope using the term 'large' is sufficient to allow for various dispositions of hand size in describing such cases.

Returning to the grip size denominator, there were discussions of tulwars without the disc pommels, which were attributed to Afghan regions, and it was presumed that these were simply damaged or had lost their pommel discs. In research I once did where I interviewed a British Brigadier who had been in action in the Khyber regions in the 1930s, he showed me an example of one of these 'disc less' tulwars which he took from a tribesman there.
This seems to have been its intended character as I could not see signs of damage or removal. I thought it unusual, but did not pursue the matter at the time.

This is a fascinating case Ariel, and I hope we will see more examples of 'mega' weapons, and the very plausible circumstances of their being associated with persons of large size or of course with this unusual disorder.
Naturally the famed Biblical story of David and Goliath comes to mind.
Thank you again for a great topic!

Jim McDougall · 25th May 2019, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Superb example ... and interesting subject, Dr. Barkin.
In a different perspective, i would say this giant navaja was only for show off, and not destined to a customer with a GH anomaly

.

.

It seems there have been numbers of these huge navaja around over the years, and most seem to have been, as suggested, for knife makers displays. It does seem that many navaja were of unusually large size however, as they were intended often to serve as a kind of dirk or small sword in dire circumstances. Common folk (including sailors) were not permitted swords in many places (Spain comes to mind) and this became a concealable stand in weapon. Thus began the pocket or folding knife trend.

ariel · 26th May 2019, 12:12 AM

Jim,
The story of David and Goliath contains some fascinating hints of acromegaly in the latter.

His height was 6 cubits and a span, ~ 280cm ( ~ 9’ 2”) . That’s a mother of all gigantisms!

Now about the tumor:

If the tumor goes sideways, it affects nerves responsible for an eye movement. Thus , the afflicted person cannot move both eyes in a precisely coordinated fashion and develops double vision. And when and if it goes upward, the afflicted loses peripheral vision.

Goliath “ looked about” to find David, because he could see only a narrow field in front of him. For anything else he had to turn his eyes.

And here comes the punchline:

When he, looking sideways, finally located David approaching him with a shepherd’s staff, he said derisively: “Am I a dog that you are coming against me with sticks ( sic!) ?”

The point is , David carried only one stick:-)

Thus, the Bible tells us that Goliath had gigantism, loss of peripheral vision and double vision: he had a very big and invasive pituitary tumor producing GH

Jim McDougall · 26th May 2019, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Jim,
The story of David and Goliath contains some fascinating hints of acromegaly in the latter.

His height was 6 cubits and a span, ~ 280cm ( ~ 9’ 2”) . That’s a mother of all gigantisms!

Now about the tumor:

If the tumor goes sideways, it affects nerves responsible for an eye movement. Thus , the afflicted person cannot move both eyes in a precisely coordinated fashion and develops double vision. And when and if it goes upward, the afflicted loses peripheral vision.

Goliath “ looked about” to find David, because he could see only a narrow field in front of him. For anything else he had to turn his eyes.

And here comes the punchline:

When he, looking sideways, finally located David approaching him with a shepherd’s staff, he said derisively: “Am I a dog that you are coming against me with sticks ( sic!) ?”

The point is , David carried only one stick:-)

Thus, the Bible tells us that Goliath had gigantism, loss of peripheral vision and double vision: he had a very big and invasive pituitary tumor producing GH

Now THAT is interesting! I always found bio-history or medical aspects of historical figures fascinating. Another case of the study of history and arms in tandem. Thank you!

fernando · 26th May 2019, 11:16 AM

A fascinating episode of Biblical history indeed. Thanks a lot for revealing it.

ALEX · 28th May 2019, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

...
The " giant" one sports a blade that is 34 1/2 " long.
...

Ariel,
An interesting story and analogy indeed. Here is another one of those "giant" Khybers... but even longer, 56" overall with 47" blade! There may be more than one giant in Afghanistan, or these long Khybers may be made to be used as swords

As Fernando noticed earlier, Navajas are well known to be made in over-sized proportions, as many other types in various locales, predominantly for exhibitions purposes. Another photo below shows a modern 'giant' dagger made in Pakistan.

kronckew · 28th May 2019, 09:08 AM

Looks like a two handed 56" Khyber, one hand to hold the what appears to be a normal size grip, and someone else's hand to hold it closer to the tip

. The assistant would also help draw it from it'sscabbard.

Maybe the owner just didn't want an opponent to get close enough to require a regular sized one. Must have had pretty strong wrists too. As would the guy with the little bowie.

25th May 2019, 06:24 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sword of a Giant ( hormonal) For those of you who do not know me well, in addition to studying swords I also have to make a living:-). My job consists mainly of research in pituitary hormones in humans, especially growth hormone (GH). A good chunk of my time is occupied by taking care of patients with a disease called acromegaly: they have pituitary tumors producing a lot of GH and, as a result, growing excessively and uncontrollably. If a tumor appears in childhood, when the bones can still get longer, they become giants. But even if the disease starts in adulthood and they cannot grow taller, they still can grow "wider", developing coarse facial features and enormous hands and feet. Here are pics of the most famous giant acromegalic, Andre the Giant, showing his overall height and the size of his hands ( vs. Mohammed Ali's) OK, that's the introduction. This was why I bought this Khyber: here are pics of it in comparison with two " standard " ones. Blades of standard khybers are ~ 20-23 " The " giant" one sports a blade that is 34 1/2 " long. Well, one can say that the owner ordered such a monster simply because he had " penis envy" However, let's measure the grip, as a reflection of the size of his hands. Those of standard khybers are 3 1/2 and 3 3/4" in length The " giant" one's is full 5". He must have had rather enormous hands. Thus, I would guess that this khyber belonged to an Afghani man who suffered from gigantism/acromegaly. If so, he would have been very impressive as a ceremonial guardsman, but not very useful as a fighter: usually, these patients have very big pituitary tumors compressing their eye nerves and causing loss of vision, their high GH causes awful damage to the joints and the mobility is grossly diminished, and they also often have damage to the pituitary and lack cortisol, thyroid hormone and testosterone, making them very tired, fatigued and weak. if untreated, they also die very young as a result of even minor infection. Virtually all circus giants of the 19th- early 20th century died before 40 y.o. "The Irish Giant" Charles Byrne and " The Alton Giant" Robert Wadlow both died at 22. Now you understand why I got this monster: it blends my job ( study of swords) with my side hobby ( endocrinology) :-) Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 25th May 2019 at 06:40 PM.

25th May 2019, 08:15 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Sorry the intrusion ... Superb example ... and interesting subject, Dr. Barkin. In a different perspective, i would say this giant navaja was only for show off, and not destined to a customer with a GH anomaly . . Attached Images

25th May 2019, 07:54 PM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Wow, that is fascinating... both the intro and the blade. Thanks for sharing.

25th May 2019, 08:47 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	WOW! Now this is a dramatic example of contrast in view of the current thread discussing smaller grips and weaponry found in Indian edged weapons. Ariel, I would like to join in thanking you for the fascinating introduction and explanation of your career in medical research, which is most important. Your contributions to advancing knowledge and helping people with these maladies are commendable and I hope well recognized with the gratitude deserved. While the supposition toward this rather large 'Khyber' being for someone so afflicted with acromegaly is of course possible, it does seem that I have been told that Afghan ethnic groups are often of larger size, and indeed with large hands. I hope using the term 'large' is sufficient to allow for various dispositions of hand size in describing such cases. Returning to the grip size denominator, there were discussions of tulwars without the disc pommels, which were attributed to Afghan regions, and it was presumed that these were simply damaged or had lost their pommel discs. In research I once did where I interviewed a British Brigadier who had been in action in the Khyber regions in the 1930s, he showed me an example of one of these 'disc less' tulwars which he took from a tribesman there. This seems to have been its intended character as I could not see signs of damage or removal. I thought it unusual, but did not pursue the matter at the time. This is a fascinating case Ariel, and I hope we will see more examples of 'mega' weapons, and the very plausible circumstances of their being associated with persons of large size or of course with this unusual disorder. Naturally the famed Biblical story of David and Goliath comes to mind. Thank you again for a great topic!

26th May 2019, 12:12 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, The story of David and Goliath contains some fascinating hints of acromegaly in the latter. His height was 6 cubits and a span, ~ 280cm ( ~ 9’ 2”) . That’s a mother of all gigantisms! Now about the tumor: If the tumor goes sideways, it affects nerves responsible for an eye movement. Thus , the afflicted person cannot move both eyes in a precisely coordinated fashion and develops double vision. And when and if it goes upward, the afflicted loses peripheral vision. Goliath “ looked about” to find David, because he could see only a narrow field in front of him. For anything else he had to turn his eyes. And here comes the punchline: When he, looking sideways, finally located David approaching him with a shepherd’s staff, he said derisively: “Am I a dog that you are coming against me with sticks ( sic!) ?” The point is , David carried only one stick:-) Thus, the Bible tells us that Goliath had gigantism, loss of peripheral vision and double vision: he had a very big and invasive pituitary tumor producing GH

26th May 2019, 11:16 AM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A fascinating episode of Biblical history indeed. Thanks a lot for revealing it.

28th May 2019, 09:08 AM	#10
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	Looks like a two handed 56" Khyber, one hand to hold the what appears to be a normal size grip, and someone else's hand to hold it closer to the tip . The assistant would also help draw it from it'sscabbard. Maybe the owner just didn't want an opponent to get close enough to require a regular sized one. Must have had pretty strong wrists too. As would the guy with the little bowie.