Pen is mightier than the sword

katana · 8th May 2011, 06:43 PM

The gladius was the main weapon of one of the greatest military machines of history....the Roman empire. Incidentally, 'gladius' was also Roman slang for the 'male appendage' (hence the title). The effective technique of lines of Roman Centurions advancing with a 'shield wall' and slashing oncoming opponents with their short swords was effectively a giant killing lawn mower....with the enemy playing the part of the grass

This sword was re-introduced as a side arm as the French foot artillery short sword of 1816 and the later variants including the US 1832 model. Now, this 'later' sword type was not well liked or was extremely effective in combat and was known by the French as the coupe choux (cabbage cutter). It ended up being used mainly as a machete for cutting wood, cutting brush and creating trails.

It seems that the 'pen pushers' dictated the decision to issue the sword to the troops on a misguided belief that 'if it worked so well for the Romans ....' but failed to understand that the weapon 'matched' the tactics.
To me, it seems that the design changes to regulation swords were influenced more by government 'officials' than by military considerations. In an ethnographic environment the evolution of weapons tends to be driven by 'what's better', adopting improvements from enemy weapons and better technology.
So was this case.......what other swords were supposedly replaced by improved patterns...that on the battle field were in fact worse.

All comments gratefully received

Kind Regards David

Hotspur · 8th May 2011, 08:56 PM

Quote:

This sword was re-introduced as a side arm as the French foot artillery short sword of 1816 and the later variants including the US 1832 model. Now, this 'later' sword type was not well liked or was extremely effective in combat and was known by the French as the coupe choux (cabbage cutter). It ended up being used mainly as a machete for cutting wood, cutting brush and creating trails.

Wasn't the purpose and role intended exactly that. There is somewhere reference in either WWI or WWII asking once again for a cq weapon but the short swords of the worlds military did continue field what were basically fascine knives through at least WWI. Then there are any number of bolo and later smachet. Obviously, the falchions and other lighter artillery and engineer swords were more plentiful but many nations ended up with one version or another at some point in their development. Grips varied but the fish scale grips were for the purpose of aiding grip, as were the more common simple concentric grooves. For a big ding donger of a blade, there was the oddity known to the Welch Fusilliers sword of a crowbar.

www.rwfmuseum.org.uk/nb.html

Aside from not just the two later French blade types (1816&1831) they seemed to be popular in the cutlass or artillery role in Confederate America. Examples ranging from very coarse to southern copies of the Ames 1841 cutlass. Those more similar to the French 1831 infantry sleeker leaf blade. Heck, even the British had a go and imported many "1855 Land Transport" single edge (but variants show up) swords.

A rather odd one turned up on Sunny Tampa's list a couple of years ago and was probably in the theatrical or fraternal vein. Hollywood had a go as well.

Cheers

GC

fearn · 8th May 2011, 11:31 PM

So far as I know, the pen is mightier than the sword, but only if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp. (Courtesy Sir T Pratchett).

Rick · 9th May 2011, 12:34 AM

We try to leave the schoolboy humor in the cloakroom .....

fernando · 9th May 2011, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

We try to leave the schoolboy humor in the cloakroom .....

Sure thing.
Thread title edited.

Jim McDougall · 9th May 2011, 04:00 PM

Hi David,
Just to return to your original topic, which is really a great one for discussion. I know exactly what you mean with your original title but I wanted to get on board with the course you wanted to set about the disconnected development of regulation patterns.

The sword you chose as an illustration (the cabbage cutter) was a great one, and really shows the 'looks good on paper' syndrome. Sort of reminds me of the old one, 'definition of a camel" a horse designed by a committee'!

With regulation military swords, often there was much more concern with 'fashion' than effectiveness toward the end of the 18th century, and France by then was in its neo-classic stage. The French Revolution carried forth many allusions to the ancients in its themes and particularly Roman subjects, so the later adoption of the 'gladius' atavistically in military setting is hardly surprising. At least they did not have the troops start wearing togas!

The close ties to France after the American Revolution in many respects led to following thier lead in military fashion, and many of the U.S. military swords and elements of uniform followed French military fashion. Here again, the patently decorative 'gladius' type weapon was adopted for the artillery officers in 1833, and indeed later found its way into Confederate use by the time of the Civil War. The bizarre similarity to to ancient Roman swords in at least one instance presented an interesting conundrum to a 'would be' archaeologist a number of years ago, I believe it was in the New York area.
One of these was dug up inadvertantly, and in a news item declared to be evidence of Romans in America from ancient times!!!! Pretty sure his chagrin must have proven unbearable soon thereafter.

Despite the colorful portrayals of sabre waving charges during the Civil War, in actuality swords were seldom really used, and commonly not even sharpened. Naturally there were exceptions in degree with certain officers in flamboyant circumstances, but with rank and file troops, these were mostly a traditionally dictated encumbrance. In medical terms in references I have seen over the years, it is noted that of the remarkably few sword related wounds seen, most were blunt force trauma, further suggesting less than sharp blades. In addition, most troops were poorly trained in sword excercise, which is one of the leading reasons why the M1840 heavy cavalry sabre was nicknamed 'the old wristbreaker'. It was actually a very effective sabre, if used properly, however if not....indeed could result in painful repercussions.

Another unfortunate experiment in trying to adopt the use of anachronistic weaponry a'la European style by Union troops were the few units of cavalry assigned to become lancer units. This was largely disastrous, and the men were from most accounts far more dangerous to each other than to a potential enemy combatant. Again, Im sure there are opposing perspectives (which Id love to hear!) but what I read was as noted. As far as use of the lance in North America, its use by American Indian warriors and Spanish lanceros was tremendously effective (one of the most remarkable events of Californio lancers being at the Battle of San Pasqual during the Mexican War).

With the British, one of the greatest advances in the development of effective regulation swords was with LeMarchant, a brilliant young cavalry officer who proposed what became the first officially recognized military pattern cavalry swords in 1796. Though the heavy cavalry sword was ill received, the light cavalry sabre proved to be one of the most effective sabres known, and despite being superceded by other patterns subsequently, remained in use throughout the 19th and even into the 20th century. For cavalry swords, it was always the battle of cut vs. thrust and the never ending quest for the universal sword that could effectively deliver both.
By the time the issue was 'resolved' (with M1908 British and M1913 'Patton' US swords) the sword was for all intents and purposes obsolete. The M1908 British swords were actually used though, while the 'Pattons' never saw combat.

As always, I hope these notes will add perspective and possibly even more discussion. Thanks for posting the topic David!

All best regards,
Jim

8th May 2011, 06:43 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Pen is mightier than the sword The gladius was the main weapon of one of the greatest military machines of history....the Roman empire. Incidentally, 'gladius' was also Roman slang for the 'male appendage' (hence the title). The effective technique of lines of Roman Centurions advancing with a 'shield wall' and slashing oncoming opponents with their short swords was effectively a giant killing lawn mower....with the enemy playing the part of the grass This sword was re-introduced as a side arm as the French foot artillery short sword of 1816 and the later variants including the US 1832 model. Now, this 'later' sword type was not well liked or was extremely effective in combat and was known by the French as the coupe choux (cabbage cutter). It ended up being used mainly as a machete for cutting wood, cutting brush and creating trails. It seems that the 'pen pushers' dictated the decision to issue the sword to the troops on a misguided belief that 'if it worked so well for the Romans ....' but failed to understand that the weapon 'matched' the tactics. To me, it seems that the design changes to regulation swords were influenced more by government 'officials' than by military considerations. In an ethnographic environment the evolution of weapons tends to be driven by 'what's better', adopting improvements from enemy weapons and better technology. So was this case.......what other swords were supposedly replaced by improved patterns...that on the battle field were in fact worse. All comments gratefully received Kind Regards David Last edited by katana; 9th May 2011 at 06:26 PM. Reason: Title changed by Mods so edited some of the post

8th May 2011, 11:31 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	So far as I know, the pen is mightier than the sword, but only if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp. (Courtesy Sir T Pratchett).

9th May 2011, 12:34 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	We try to leave the schoolboy humor in the cloakroom .....

9th May 2011, 04:00 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Hi David, Just to return to your original topic, which is really a great one for discussion. I know exactly what you mean with your original title but I wanted to get on board with the course you wanted to set about the disconnected development of regulation patterns. The sword you chose as an illustration (the cabbage cutter) was a great one, and really shows the 'looks good on paper' syndrome. Sort of reminds me of the old one, 'definition of a camel" a horse designed by a committee'! With regulation military swords, often there was much more concern with 'fashion' than effectiveness toward the end of the 18th century, and France by then was in its neo-classic stage. The French Revolution carried forth many allusions to the ancients in its themes and particularly Roman subjects, so the later adoption of the 'gladius' atavistically in military setting is hardly surprising. At least they did not have the troops start wearing togas! The close ties to France after the American Revolution in many respects led to following thier lead in military fashion, and many of the U.S. military swords and elements of uniform followed French military fashion. Here again, the patently decorative 'gladius' type weapon was adopted for the artillery officers in 1833, and indeed later found its way into Confederate use by the time of the Civil War. The bizarre similarity to to ancient Roman swords in at least one instance presented an interesting conundrum to a 'would be' archaeologist a number of years ago, I believe it was in the New York area. One of these was dug up inadvertantly, and in a news item declared to be evidence of Romans in America from ancient times!!!! Pretty sure his chagrin must have proven unbearable soon thereafter. Despite the colorful portrayals of sabre waving charges during the Civil War, in actuality swords were seldom really used, and commonly not even sharpened. Naturally there were exceptions in degree with certain officers in flamboyant circumstances, but with rank and file troops, these were mostly a traditionally dictated encumbrance. In medical terms in references I have seen over the years, it is noted that of the remarkably few sword related wounds seen, most were blunt force trauma, further suggesting less than sharp blades. In addition, most troops were poorly trained in sword excercise, which is one of the leading reasons why the M1840 heavy cavalry sabre was nicknamed 'the old wristbreaker'. It was actually a very effective sabre, if used properly, however if not....indeed could result in painful repercussions. Another unfortunate experiment in trying to adopt the use of anachronistic weaponry a'la European style by Union troops were the few units of cavalry assigned to become lancer units. This was largely disastrous, and the men were from most accounts far more dangerous to each other than to a potential enemy combatant. Again, Im sure there are opposing perspectives (which Id love to hear!) but what I read was as noted. As far as use of the lance in North America, its use by American Indian warriors and Spanish lanceros was tremendously effective (one of the most remarkable events of Californio lancers being at the Battle of San Pasqual during the Mexican War). With the British, one of the greatest advances in the development of effective regulation swords was with LeMarchant, a brilliant young cavalry officer who proposed what became the first officially recognized military pattern cavalry swords in 1796. Though the heavy cavalry sword was ill received, the light cavalry sabre proved to be one of the most effective sabres known, and despite being superceded by other patterns subsequently, remained in use throughout the 19th and even into the 20th century. For cavalry swords, it was always the battle of cut vs. thrust and the never ending quest for the universal sword that could effectively deliver both. By the time the issue was 'resolved' (with M1908 British and M1913 'Patton' US swords) the sword was for all intents and purposes obsolete. The M1908 British swords were actually used though, while the 'Pattons' never saw combat. As always, I hope these notes will add perspective and possibly even more discussion. Thanks for posting the topic David! All best regards, Jim