Chinese (or other country) sai/parrying weapon

Shakethetrees · 15th September 2014, 03:35 AM

I've been struggling with this one for a long time.

It's entirely hand wrought iron and I would have no problem assigning an 18th/19th century date.

I'm sure the grip was wrapped at one time.

Any information y'all have will be appreciated, nationality, an accurate name for it, etc.

I suspect it's a KungFu or other discipline weapon, but I'm open to suggestions.

kai · 15th September 2014, 10:13 PM

Seems like a sturdy, genuine piece.

The pommel looks Chinese to me.

Regards,
Kai

Aleksey · 15th September 2014, 10:28 PM

Chinese bijiacha (literally it means the "rack for the bruch").

Could be paired or used in single veriant. Some specimens mave the barrel drilled in the central prong.

I think it is the second half of XIX century as the most part of alike items dated not earlier than XIX century by iconography and pieces with dates engraved (or indicated by any other method) and only modern "kungfu movie's legends" attributed them as really ancient pieces of weapon.

The hilt could be wrapped initially with the hemp cord or a band of fabric. I saw a lot with red band wrapping, all old, torn and worn. THis colour is the national color of Chinese so they liked to use it for weapon.

Timo Nieminen · 16th September 2014, 12:41 AM

Probably Chinese. These were also used in Indonesia, Okinawa, and elsewhere. Indonesian ones have pommels similar to Chinese ones, so far as I have seen.

They were used as police truncheons (like jutte/jitte in Japan), not just as martial arts weapons.

Sai in English, which is from the Japanese, from Chinese chai. The character 釵 also means "hairpin".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sai_(weapon)

Aleksey · 16th September 2014, 08:46 AM

This one is Chinese for sure.

Regarding the name - bijiacha in Chinese, no correspondence to Japanese in spite of the hyerogliphic as they used another tradition - some words in Chinese are written by different hyerogliphs then in Japanese and visa versa.

Regarding the police weapon - not for China. For Japan - it is OK.

The origin of the weapon could be from trishula trident in Buddhist iconocgarphy but this point is not for sure - only assumption.

estcrh · 16th September 2014, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aleksey

This one is Chinese for sure.

Regarding the name - bijiacha in Chinese, no correspondence to Japanese in spite of the hyerogliphic as they used another tradition - some words in Chinese are written by different hyerogliphs then in Japanese and visa versa.

Regarding the police weapon - not for China. For Japan - it is OK.

The origin of the weapon could be from trishula trident in Buddhist iconocgarphy but this point is not for sure - only assumption.

Aleksey, were are you getting this information from, if you search for the word "bijiacha" you do not find one image or mention of a sai, if you search for "Chinese sai you will not find much either, if you search for "Okinawan sai" you will find many similar looking sai to the one being discussed.

Here is a section from "Taiho-Jutsu: Law and Order in the Age of the Samurai" by Don Cunningham which discusses sai in China and Okinawa as well as some other Chinese iron bar weapons.

I have posted an image of what was said to be a Chinese sai, it is quite long and pointed.

ausjulius · 28th September 2014, 10:10 PM

it is indeed anodd weapon.. its hard to say the origin of them if they dont have a grip wrapping any more..

the malay style with have a spiraling bount cord that makes it easy to distinguish..
also malay ones almost always have some for of point as it is a weapon after all.
but in china and japan laws forbidding general public from having pointy things turn many of these into a steel baton..

malay name is trisula.. which lets you know its origins by its indo-aryan name .. being a trident i would imagine it was originally some scaled down version of the fork like Indian spears that have spread through asia with indian religion.

many of the malay trisula have indeed chinese multifaced pommels.. and ive seen japanese ones like it too.

the sai and the tonfa batons both have their origins in malay martial arts.(the tonfa baton is also present in burma and thailand.. as is the trisula.. although very uncommon so again the real origin of both may be indian martial arts.. )
.
we must remember that 1200 years ago the malay kingdoms were powerful states controlling the sea beween east asia and india and although they are long forgotten today at one time they were naval super powers of the region, - controling the seas of south east asia.. so lots of these things spread very rapidly and were ingested locally.

estcrh · 16th September 2014, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

I've been struggling with this one for a long time.

It's entirely hand wrought iron and I would have no problem assigning an 18th/19th century date.

I'm sure the grip was wrapped at one time.

Any information y'all have will be appreciated, nationality, an accurate name for it, etc.

I suspect it's a KungFu or other discipline weapon, but I'm open to suggestions.

Real antique sai are quite rare, there are only a few images available online, from what I have read and seen your sai is not Chinese, it looks like an Okinawan sai, the antique Chinese sai like weapons that I have seen looked different then this. I have uploaded a few images of antique sai, from left to right, two Okinawan sai found in Japan with wrapped hilts and the smaller sai with no wrapping came from Indonesia, your sai has some similar traits to the ones I posted.

In Indonesia the sai seem to have been more for martial arts use, in Okinawa they had more of a weapons type use. Okinawa was under Japanese control for several hundred years and the Japanese weapon known as the jutte sometimes took the form of a sai, I have included an image of two Japanese sai jutte.

The bottom image is a quote from"The Secret Royal Martial Arts of Ryukyu"
by Kanenori Sakon Matsuo, which discusses the use of the sai in Okinawa.

benny.lee · 14th June 2016, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

I've been struggling with this one for a long time.

It's entirely hand wrought iron and I would have no problem assigning an 18th/19th century date.

I'm sure the grip was wrapped at one time.

Any information y'all have will be appreciated, nationality, an accurate name for it, etc.

I suspect it's a KungFu or other discipline weapon, but I'm open to suggestions.

yes
This is China's "hand fork". （手叉）（SHOUCHA)Pair use
Can hit, block and thorn
There are similar weapons in other Asian countries.
Japan, Southeast Asian countries have
The difference lies in the tail, Chinese fork usually have a" eight tail"

estcrh · 14th June 2016, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benny.lee

yes
This is China's "hand fork". （手叉）（SHOUCHA)Pair use
Can hit, block and thorn
There are similar weapons in other Asian countries.
Japan, Southeast Asian countries have
The difference lies in the tail, Chinese fork usually have a" eight tail"

Benny, when is search using 手叉 there are no images of shoucha / sai....just forks, is there another word? Do you think that either of these are Chinese, these are in my collection.

benny.lee · 15th June 2016, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Benny, when is search using 手叉 there are no images of shoucha / sai....just forks, is there another word? Do you think that either of these are Chinese, these are in my collection.

These two are also China's weapons
Because of this weapon is not a standard equipment, so many of his titles in the civil
Can be called "铁尺"（Iron ruler）（TIE CHI)

Gavin Nugent · 15th June 2016, 10:44 AM

An image I have on file that was shared elsewhere recently.

Gavin

Gavin Nugent · 21st July 2016, 11:52 AM

I bought this quite some time ago in a box lot of Tibet and Mongolian knives and trousse and upon playing with it recently, it is a most effective and destructive little item...the question is, is it actually a weapon, i.e; an iron ruler or something else like a sharpening steel?

It is just under 34.5cms long. the grip is rectangular and shaped for fitment in the hand. The "blade" for want of a better word is thicker and broader than the handle and an elliptical cross section and a tapering tip...no sharp edges, just effective blunt force trauma.
POB is at the half way mark, which is putting all the weight forward but little to no effort in the hand.

Gavin

Shakethetrees · 14th June 2016, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benny.lee

Chinese fork usually have a" eight tail"

Do you mean eight sided?

estcrh · 14th June 2016, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

Do you mean eight sided?

Is he referring to the butt being octagon or the shaft?

benny.lee · 15th June 2016, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Is he referring to the butt being octagon or the shaft?

Yes, there are eight sides.

15th September 2014, 03:35 AM	#1
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Chinese (or other country) sai/parrying weapon I've been struggling with this one for a long time. It's entirely hand wrought iron and I would have no problem assigning an 18th/19th century date. I'm sure the grip was wrapped at one time. Any information y'all have will be appreciated, nationality, an accurate name for it, etc. I suspect it's a KungFu or other discipline weapon, but I'm open to suggestions. Attached Images

15th June 2016, 10:44 AM	#12
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	An image I have on file that was shared elsewhere recently. Gavin Attached Images

21st July 2016, 11:52 AM	#13
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Iron ruler I bought this quite some time ago in a box lot of Tibet and Mongolian knives and trousse and upon playing with it recently, it is a most effective and destructive little item...the question is, is it actually a weapon, i.e; an iron ruler or something else like a sharpening steel? It is just under 34.5cms long. the grip is rectangular and shaped for fitment in the hand. The "blade" for want of a better word is thicker and broader than the handle and an elliptical cross section and a tapering tip...no sharp edges, just effective blunt force trauma. POB is at the half way mark, which is putting all the weight forward but little to no effort in the hand. Gavin Attached Images

15th September 2014, 10:13 PM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Seems like a sturdy, genuine piece. The pommel looks Chinese to me. Regards, Kai

15th September 2014, 10:28 PM	#3
Aleksey Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 15	Chinese bijiacha (literally it means the "rack for the bruch"). Could be paired or used in single veriant. Some specimens mave the barrel drilled in the central prong. I think it is the second half of XIX century as the most part of alike items dated not earlier than XIX century by iconography and pieces with dates engraved (or indicated by any other method) and only modern "kungfu movie's legends" attributed them as really ancient pieces of weapon. The hilt could be wrapped initially with the hemp cord or a band of fabric. I saw a lot with red band wrapping, all old, torn and worn. THis colour is the national color of Chinese so they liked to use it for weapon.

16th September 2014, 12:41 AM	#4
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Probably Chinese. These were also used in Indonesia, Okinawa, and elsewhere. Indonesian ones have pommels similar to Chinese ones, so far as I have seen. They were used as police truncheons (like jutte/jitte in Japan), not just as martial arts weapons. Sai in English, which is from the Japanese, from Chinese chai. The character 釵 also means "hairpin". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sai_(weapon)

16th September 2014, 08:46 AM	#5
Aleksey Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 15	This one is Chinese for sure. Regarding the name - bijiacha in Chinese, no correspondence to Japanese in spite of the hyerogliphic as they used another tradition - some words in Chinese are written by different hyerogliphs then in Japanese and visa versa. Regarding the police weapon - not for China. For Japan - it is OK. The origin of the weapon could be from trishula trident in Buddhist iconocgarphy but this point is not for sure - only assumption.

28th September 2014, 10:10 PM	#7
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 422	it is indeed anodd weapon.. its hard to say the origin of them if they dont have a grip wrapping any more.. the malay style with have a spiraling bount cord that makes it easy to distinguish.. also malay ones almost always have some for of point as it is a weapon after all. but in china and japan laws forbidding general public from having pointy things turn many of these into a steel baton.. malay name is trisula.. which lets you know its origins by its indo-aryan name .. being a trident i would imagine it was originally some scaled down version of the fork like Indian spears that have spread through asia with indian religion. many of the malay trisula have indeed chinese multifaced pommels.. and ive seen japanese ones like it too. the sai and the tonfa batons both have their origins in malay martial arts.(the tonfa baton is also present in burma and thailand.. as is the trisula.. although very uncommon so again the real origin of both may be indian martial arts.. ) . we must remember that 1200 years ago the malay kingdoms were powerful states controlling the sea beween east asia and india and although they are long forgotten today at one time they were naval super powers of the region, - controling the seas of south east asia.. so lots of these things spread very rapidly and were ingested locally.