An odd dha with dried leaves on it

Mark · 6th April 2006, 02:30 AM

This is a dha that someone asked my opinion on. My guess was Cambodian, but it is just a guess. Vietnamese and Thai are also possiblities.

What is especially intriguing are the dried leaves that are tied to the scabbard. They are very likely bamboo leaves (definitely monocot, anyway). As you can see, they are folded and tied in a very particular way, with sticks piercing and holding them together (there are also holes where a few are missing). Has anyone ever seen this before? Any ideas about its significance?

Ian · 6th April 2006, 03:28 AM

Hi Mark:

That looks like a very old blade, and the guard seems to be contemporary to the blade.

The style of hilt suggests Cambodian, although the disk guard is a little wider than usual.

The blade is not really a continuous curve. The last third is curved up but the rest of the blade is essentially straight. Don't think I've seen that before on a dha. And the blade is narrower than most dha. I have an old Cambodian dha that also has a vey narrow blade, so there may be some consonance with Mark's suggestion of a Cambodian origin. The vegetative decoration could reflect a ritual purpose.

I'm stumped in coming up with a precise attribution. Cambodian seems most likely, but Vietnamese or Lao are not out of the question. The single ferrule and wooden handle is also a feature of N. Thailand, but the wide disk guard puts me off a Thai origin.

Intriguing piece.

Ian.

RobT · 6th April 2006, 03:39 AM

Hi all,
Could the leaves have once been joined together to form a pouch to hold a by knife as on a Mandau sheath?
Sincerely,
RobT

Titus Pullo · 6th April 2006, 06:37 AM

I think it's Cambodian, though. I thought Thai swords are much shorter and probably heavier for fighting at close range. People think if it's heavy it's cumbersome. But you know what? Boxers are the best athletes...particularily Muay Thai boxers at the top.

PUFF · 6th April 2006, 10:45 AM

The blade has Katana tapering/curving profile with crude Tsuba, no Habaki abd has Dahb style hilt (and tang

I guessed). This is a good example of Katana-inspired SE asian blades. There is a Japanese record for a trading route between S. Japan and malaya peninsula in the late 16th cent. And in the early 17th cent., Japanese merchants and samurais (mostly ronin

) moved to Siam and established a Japanese settlement in Ayuthaya.

The story is their leader, Yamada Nagamasa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamada_Nagamasa), got a high position in Ayuthaya. And later, he moved to be a ruler in Nakhon Sri Thammarat (A province in the southern part of Thailand). After the Japanese colony in the Nakorn Sri Thammarat was destroyed by a new king of Siam, many Japanese manged to flee to the Cambodia. And these is the reason why Katana-inspired blades can be found in Cambodia, Central and southern Thailand

.

Any of you having a chance to visit Ayuthaya city should take a look of the still exist Japanese village.

PUFF · 6th April 2006, 12:23 PM

I don't have any idea about the bamboo leaves. For me, the leaves were cut and arranged in some manner. The material 's not very old. Looks like they has been used in annually traditional ritual for people in some area.

VANDOO · 6th April 2006, 05:45 PM

I WOULD THINK THE LEAVES ARE THERE FOR CEREMONIAL PURPOSES, VARIOUS KINDS OF LEAVES ARE USED FOR DIFFERENT THINGS THE WORLD OVER. THE LEAVES LOOK LIKE TI LEAVES TO ME RATHER THAN BAMBOO AND THERE MAY BE MORE THAN ONE TYPE OF LEAF ,DIFFICULT TO TELL FROM A PICTURE. THE TI LEAF IS USED IN VARIOUS CEREMONYS AND TO PLACE OFFERINGS ON THE MAIRAE (ALTER) IN OLD HAWAIIAN CEREMONYS. THERE ARE ALSO SPECIAL LEAVES USED IN BORNEO TO PLACE ON THE HEADS TAKEN IN HEADHUNTING DAYS, THERE IS A RITUAL SUPPOSED TO BE PREFORMED EVERY YEAR TO REPLACE THESE LEAVES.
IF NOT CEREMONIAL THEY COULD BE THERE TO USE TO WIPE DOWN THE BLADE WHEN IT GOT DIRTY OR WET, A MORE EXOTIC CONJECTURE WOULD BE THAT THEY WERE POISON AND COULD BE WIPED ON THE BLADE JUST BEFORE A FIGHT. ALL JUST GUESSES

A NICE OLD EXAMPLE BUT IT LOOKS LIKE THEY SHOULD HAVE WIPED THE BLADE WITH DRY LEAVES MORE OFTEN.

6th April 2006, 02:30 AM	#1
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	An odd dha with dried leaves on it This is a dha that someone asked my opinion on. My guess was Cambodian, but it is just a guess. Vietnamese and Thai are also possiblities. What is especially intriguing are the dried leaves that are tied to the scabbard. They are very likely bamboo leaves (definitely monocot, anyway). As you can see, they are folded and tied in a very particular way, with sticks piercing and holding them together (there are also holes where a few are missing). Has anyone ever seen this before? Any ideas about its significance? Attached Images

6th April 2006, 03:39 AM	#3
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 493	just a guess Hi all, Could the leaves have once been joined together to form a pouch to hold a by knife as on a Mandau sheath? Sincerely, RobT

6th April 2006, 10:45 AM	#5
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	The blade has Katana tapering/curving profile with crude Tsuba, no Habaki abd has Dahb style hilt (and tang I guessed). This is a good example of Katana-inspired SE asian blades. There is a Japanese record for a trading route between S. Japan and malaya peninsula in the late 16th cent. And in the early 17th cent., Japanese merchants and samurais (mostly ronin ) moved to Siam and established a Japanese settlement in Ayuthaya. The story is their leader, Yamada Nagamasa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamada_Nagamasa), got a high position in Ayuthaya. And later, he moved to be a ruler in Nakhon Sri Thammarat (A province in the southern part of Thailand). After the Japanese colony in the Nakorn Sri Thammarat was destroyed by a new king of Siam, many Japanese manged to flee to the Cambodia. And these is the reason why Katana-inspired blades can be found in Cambodia, Central and southern Thailand . Any of you having a chance to visit Ayuthaya city should take a look of the still exist Japanese village. Last edited by PUFF; 6th April 2006 at 12:26 PM.

6th April 2006, 03:28 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Hi Mark: That looks like a very old blade, and the guard seems to be contemporary to the blade. The style of hilt suggests Cambodian, although the disk guard is a little wider than usual. The blade is not really a continuous curve. The last third is curved up but the rest of the blade is essentially straight. Don't think I've seen that before on a dha. And the blade is narrower than most dha. I have an old Cambodian dha that also has a vey narrow blade, so there may be some consonance with Mark's suggestion of a Cambodian origin. The vegetative decoration could reflect a ritual purpose. I'm stumped in coming up with a precise attribution. Cambodian seems most likely, but Vietnamese or Lao are not out of the question. The single ferrule and wooden handle is also a feature of N. Thailand, but the wide disk guard puts me off a Thai origin. Intriguing piece. Ian.

6th April 2006, 06:37 AM	#4
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	I think it's Cambodian, though. I thought Thai swords are much shorter and probably heavier for fighting at close range. People think if it's heavy it's cumbersome. But you know what? Boxers are the best athletes...particularily Muay Thai boxers at the top.

6th April 2006, 12:23 PM	#6
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	I don't have any idea about the bamboo leaves. For me, the leaves were cut and arranged in some manner. The material 's not very old. Looks like they has been used in annually traditional ritual for people in some area.

6th April 2006, 05:45 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WOULD THINK THE LEAVES ARE THERE FOR CEREMONIAL PURPOSES, VARIOUS KINDS OF LEAVES ARE USED FOR DIFFERENT THINGS THE WORLD OVER. THE LEAVES LOOK LIKE TI LEAVES TO ME RATHER THAN BAMBOO AND THERE MAY BE MORE THAN ONE TYPE OF LEAF ,DIFFICULT TO TELL FROM A PICTURE. THE TI LEAF IS USED IN VARIOUS CEREMONYS AND TO PLACE OFFERINGS ON THE MAIRAE (ALTER) IN OLD HAWAIIAN CEREMONYS. THERE ARE ALSO SPECIAL LEAVES USED IN BORNEO TO PLACE ON THE HEADS TAKEN IN HEADHUNTING DAYS, THERE IS A RITUAL SUPPOSED TO BE PREFORMED EVERY YEAR TO REPLACE THESE LEAVES. IF NOT CEREMONIAL THEY COULD BE THERE TO USE TO WIPE DOWN THE BLADE WHEN IT GOT DIRTY OR WET, A MORE EXOTIC CONJECTURE WOULD BE THAT THEY WERE POISON AND COULD BE WIPED ON THE BLADE JUST BEFORE A FIGHT. ALL JUST GUESSES A NICE OLD EXAMPLE BUT IT LOOKS LIKE THEY SHOULD HAVE WIPED THE BLADE WITH DRY LEAVES MORE OFTEN.