Campaign swords / Walloon swords / Felddegen - how to date them?

AHorsa · 17th November 2023, 09:24 PM

Dear all,

I´d like to put a focus on a very well known type of sowrds: In German they are called Felddegen and Feldsäbel. In english it might be campaign or (battle) field swords and sabres. Some call them Walloon swords, whereas this discribes a different, specific group of (Dutch?) swords from the mid of the 17th century. As I do not know a better fitting word for the group of swords I am writing about, I´ll call them field swords in english. They are charactarized by kidney-like shell guards, thumb ring and of course the significant knots/baluster on the guards. This group of swords where spreaded over central Europe in the 17th and early 18th century. I think most are from Germany / Austria and France.

But it seems very hard to date them seriously. Sometimes they are dated into the 30 years war, sometimes beginning of the 18th century (where, as far as I know, the Frenchs introduced this type as a standardized modell) and all between. I wonder if there as any reliable basis to date them?

They differ mainly in the form and size of the balusters and guard plates. Sometimes the shell guards are filled with a sheet showing mascarons and similar decoration, sometims the metal sheet is just pierced and sometimes those holes have the form of stars.
I recognized that the "mascaron guards" are dated as the earliest, mostly during the 30 years war. I couldn´t find any other indication for schematic dating.

Maybe one of you knows more about this group of weapons. It would also be interesting to see drawings of the time, showing soldiers wearing such swords.

Attached a picture of my three examples.

Kind regards
Andreas

Akanthus · 19th November 2023, 08:41 PM

For a long time now i am fascinatet about the kind of swords we call „ Haudegen" here in Germany. The name of these weapon’s varies from Haudegen to Felddegen, from Raufdegen to Walloon Sword.In the narrow sense i will concern here to the classical sword with two main guards with double nodes, one or two side guards, two guard plates,a thumb ring and a mostly double edged blade.
If you look across the literature and auction catalogues or visit museums, these kind of swords are dated from around 1630 up till 1740.They are mainly found in central Europe and also reached America.But is it possible to find a more exact dating of a certain sword in this rather long period ? For me it seems unlikely that a weapon is produced in just the same way over a period of over a hundred years because fashion and scills changes details.
Having seen a lot of these swords and also handled with some of them i imagine , that one can probably figure out some differences concerning a approximately age determination.It certainly will not be possible to name the decade ,but it should be possible in some cases to call it early,medium or late.Certainly we should never forget that a weapon could have changed it's parts during it's lifetime because worn or broken parts had to be repaired.Here some thoughts :

- The turk heads of the grip disappear in the later time and are substituted by metal rings.I think they are more resistant and also cheaper .
- Instead of wire, metal grip hilts ( brass , tin ) or leather is used to cover the grip in later time.
- The nodes are getting smaller in later times.I think the function of the nodes is the possibility to parry the opponents blade or to make a punch with the hilt of the sword more effective.Naturally these nodes have also a stylish function.
- The guard plates are reduced .In later times there is often only one guard plate. Instead the inner guard plate ther is often only the thumb ring left, which is wider on his upper side.
- Looking onto the guard plates from the blade side, the outer edge of the guard plates built a symetrical or asymetrical „8“ .Later swords show a kind of „heart “.
- The material of the hilt changes. In the 18th.century you often find brass for hilt and guard plates.
- Here in the forum ,AHorsa mentioned in his thread „ Austrian Felddegen" ,that a metal spacer between grip and blade could indicate a later age between 1700 and the first quarter of the 18th. Century.
- Certainly also the blades tell us something about age.But blades often had to be changed.

All i mentioned here is only my opinion, which may be right or wrong.I don't know how far a screw to fix the kucklebow, a pierced or non pierced guard plate or the form of the pommel tell us something about age.Certainly here are members in this forum who are able to bring light in the darkness.
Hi Andreas,
Wrote this some days ago and would have posted it in a new thread.It's funny that you made a post concerning the same thing.I think it makes sense to post it here now.

AHorsa · 29th November 2023, 04:19 PM

I just recognized, that the double edged blade with the two fullers of the 3rd sword on the picture in my first comment is from the 16th century and was reused then in the 17th century.
So I searched some literature for similar blades and came across those so called swiss sabers of the 16th century. Those sabers and also related sword of that period already show "knots" on the stirrups. Also the middle "connection piece" between the two stirrups is already there (I hope the pictures make clear what is hard for me to describe).

So my hypothesis is, that the campaign swords evolved from those particular swords of the 16th century.

I stole one picture from an old thread from Matchlock. I hope that´s fine. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=91909

17th November 2023, 09:24 PM	#1
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Campaign swords / Walloon swords / Felddegen - how to date them? Dear all, I´d like to put a focus on a very well known type of sowrds: In German they are called Felddegen and Feldsäbel. In english it might be campaign or (battle) field swords and sabres. Some call them Walloon swords, whereas this discribes a different, specific group of (Dutch?) swords from the mid of the 17th century. As I do not know a better fitting word for the group of swords I am writing about, I´ll call them field swords in english. They are charactarized by kidney-like shell guards, thumb ring and of course the significant knots/baluster on the guards. This group of swords where spreaded over central Europe in the 17th and early 18th century. I think most are from Germany / Austria and France. But it seems very hard to date them seriously. Sometimes they are dated into the 30 years war, sometimes beginning of the 18th century (where, as far as I know, the Frenchs introduced this type as a standardized modell) and all between. I wonder if there as any reliable basis to date them? They differ mainly in the form and size of the balusters and guard plates. Sometimes the shell guards are filled with a sheet showing mascarons and similar decoration, sometims the metal sheet is just pierced and sometimes those holes have the form of stars. I recognized that the "mascaron guards" are dated as the earliest, mostly during the 30 years war. I couldn´t find any other indication for schematic dating. Maybe one of you knows more about this group of weapons. It would also be interesting to see drawings of the time, showing soldiers wearing such swords. Attached a picture of my three examples. Kind regards Andreas Attached Images Last edited by AHorsa; 17th November 2023 at 10:04 PM.

29th November 2023, 04:19 PM	#3
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	I just recognized, that the double edged blade with the two fullers of the 3rd sword on the picture in my first comment is from the 16th century and was reused then in the 17th century. So I searched some literature for similar blades and came across those so called swiss sabers of the 16th century. Those sabers and also related sword of that period already show "knots" on the stirrups. Also the middle "connection piece" between the two stirrups is already there (I hope the pictures make clear what is hard for me to describe). So my hypothesis is, that the campaign swords evolved from those particular swords of the 16th century. I stole one picture from an old thread from Matchlock. I hope that´s fine. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=91909 Attached Images

19th November 2023, 08:41 PM	#2
Akanthus Member Join Date: Mar 2023 Posts: 76	For a long time now i am fascinatet about the kind of swords we call „ Haudegen" here in Germany. The name of these weapon’s varies from Haudegen to Felddegen, from Raufdegen to Walloon Sword.In the narrow sense i will concern here to the classical sword with two main guards with double nodes, one or two side guards, two guard plates,a thumb ring and a mostly double edged blade. If you look across the literature and auction catalogues or visit museums, these kind of swords are dated from around 1630 up till 1740.They are mainly found in central Europe and also reached America.But is it possible to find a more exact dating of a certain sword in this rather long period ? For me it seems unlikely that a weapon is produced in just the same way over a period of over a hundred years because fashion and scills changes details. Having seen a lot of these swords and also handled with some of them i imagine , that one can probably figure out some differences concerning a approximately age determination.It certainly will not be possible to name the decade ,but it should be possible in some cases to call it early,medium or late.Certainly we should never forget that a weapon could have changed it's parts during it's lifetime because worn or broken parts had to be repaired.Here some thoughts : - The turk heads of the grip disappear in the later time and are substituted by metal rings.I think they are more resistant and also cheaper . - Instead of wire, metal grip hilts ( brass , tin ) or leather is used to cover the grip in later time. - The nodes are getting smaller in later times.I think the function of the nodes is the possibility to parry the opponents blade or to make a punch with the hilt of the sword more effective.Naturally these nodes have also a stylish function. - The guard plates are reduced .In later times there is often only one guard plate. Instead the inner guard plate ther is often only the thumb ring left, which is wider on his upper side. - Looking onto the guard plates from the blade side, the outer edge of the guard plates built a symetrical or asymetrical „8“ .Later swords show a kind of „heart “. - The material of the hilt changes. In the 18th.century you often find brass for hilt and guard plates. - Here in the forum ,AHorsa mentioned in his thread „ Austrian Felddegen" ,that a metal spacer between grip and blade could indicate a later age between 1700 and the first quarter of the 18th. Century. - Certainly also the blades tell us something about age.But blades often had to be changed. All i mentioned here is only my opinion, which may be right or wrong.I don't know how far a screw to fix the kucklebow, a pierced or non pierced guard plate or the form of the pommel tell us something about age.Certainly here are members in this forum who are able to bring light in the darkness. Hi Andreas, Wrote this some days ago and would have posted it in a new thread.It's funny that you made a post concerning the same thing.I think it makes sense to post it here now.