Really Good kindjals - where are they ?

Rivkin · 10th December 2004, 05:08 PM

Dear All,

I'm sorry for probably a stupid question - I'm really fond of caucasian kindjals. Unfortunately by far most of the pieces I've seen are not of the quality I expect - soft steel, not damascus, sometimes in 500$ silver kubachi scabbards, whethter it's on ebay or oriental-arms.

What I really would like to know, is how hard is it to find a real dagger - not Bazalai, but damascus of a good maker. And how is it possible to see if it's damascus if the dagger is badly out of polish and basically covered with patina.

Thank you very much,

K.Rivkin

ariel · 10th December 2004, 10:58 PM

Basically, Caucasian swordmakers rarely made damascus blades. It was just too damn expensive and time consuming and the profit margin was low. They did some differential tempering, though, and there are some Caucasian swords with real "Hamon".
But, as we discussed before, most of their manufacture went to Russian officers almost as souvenirs. Under the circumstances, there was no sense to waste time on quality blades: gorgeous silver scabbard would be the main selling point.
What then about really old blades, made before the Russian invasion ( military and cultural)? Sadly, they were remounted, reforged, lost, rusted.... The locals had so little iron around that every unused piece was recycled. That's the reason why one can find really old blades mainly in the Russian museums, and those were acquired long before the 1917 Revolution.....
The kinjals we see these days are mostly beautiful, classy and expensive tourist pieces.....

Yannis · 11th December 2004, 04:07 PM

I have not seen any kindjal with real damasus blade. If anyone has please post it here. I have seen some etched damasus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The kinjals we see these days are mostly beautiful, classy and expensive tourist pieces.....

This is not quite true. After the fall of Soviet Union a lot of great Caucasian weapons exported to western market. But this is over I think. Maybe a reverse route has started.

Also there is a real factory of fakes on. Somewhere in Georgia as far as I can tell.

My kindjals are here

ariel · 11th December 2004, 05:15 PM

What I meant by "tourist pieces" is that the kindjals produced at the end of the 19th-beginning of 20th century were not meant for fighting anymore: the nature of warfare has changed. They were part of the uniform (Cossack units or ethnic units such as the mainly Chechen "Wild Division" of the Tsarist military) and were often viewed as an impediment rather than weaponry ( see B.E. Frolov "Oruzhiye Kubanskikh Kasakov", ie "Weapons of the Kuban Cossacks"). They were also a part of the national dress of Caucasian nations and as such, were worn mainly for ceremonial functions and they were also made as souvenirs and artistic objects (many still have the inscription "KABKA3"). Nothing bad or dishonorable about it, but they were just no longer real weapons meant for battle. Just as AK-47 obliterated the need in Kaskaras and Shamshirs, Mosin-Nagant rifle made the Caucasian kindjals obsolete....
Still, the memory of their real function was still fresh at that time and the quality of work was truly superb. In cotrast, after so many years of neglect and virtual ban on the manufacture of any weaponry in the former USSR the new pieces mass produced in Georgia these days have no meaning at all and, in my opinion, do not even qualify as collector pieces. Just look at their blades and vomit!

Rivkin · 11th December 2004, 05:51 PM

Well, I have dozen or so kindjals with a real damascus pattern - turkish star night, burly pattern etc. Scabbards are very inexpensive, but the blades are the real beauty, through I strongly suspect 25% of them can be etchings, but others - it's physically impossible to etch starry damascus.

Getting them was tough, and involved in most cases personal contacts. I hope to post some pictures soon.

Lee · 11th December 2004, 06:21 PM

Does anyone know where would this be from?

ausjulius · 6th September 2008, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Basically, Caucasian swordmakers rarely made damascus blades. It was just too damn expensive and time consuming and the profit margin was low. They did some differential tempering, though, and there are some Caucasian swords with real "Hamon".
But, as we discussed before, most of their manufacture went to Russian officers almost as souvenirs. Under the circumstances, there was no sense to waste time on quality blades: gorgeous silver scabbard would be the main selling point.
What then about really old blades, made before the Russian invasion ( military and cultural)? Sadly, they were remounted, reforged, lost, rusted.... The locals had so little iron around that every unused piece was recycled. That's the reason why one can find really old blades mainly in the Russian museums, and those were acquired long before the 1917 Revolution.....
The kinjals we see these days are mostly beautiful, classy and expensive tourist pieces.....

i dont know about that , ive seen a tone of bulat and damascus blades museams .. shops or such and the caucasus is littlered with them,, just becasue of the laws surrounding their export,, and the fact this area is a uncommon destination for tourists for some good reasons,, they dont make their way out so much.. proably there is alot to be found also in turkey with the large amount of imergration in the 19th century ,
but shurly there is plenty old kindjals with fine blades to be had....

kahnjar1 · 6th September 2008, 05:19 AM

Picked this up in a local auction last week.
Would appreciate comments. Overall length is 24 3/4". Blade 17 7/8".