Huge sword - Persia or Caucasus

wolviex · 20th December 2005, 09:59 AM

Hello all!

I have a question. On the pictures you can see a very huge sword - 110cm/43inch. long - it's bigger than sabre

The shape of the handle is like of Caucasian knives, the blade is quite solid, thick not cheap metal, but resilient, with fuller on both sides in the centre. On the blade are etched squiggles, and ornaments with letters or just pretending the letters (sorry no photo of this part).

Main question is: do you think it's Caucasian or Persian - like some catalogues described it. I'm sure it's 19th century, maybe even 2nd half of the century. But what was the purpose of such huge weapon - only ceremonial? It is made very solidly, just like the weapon for use, but its size seems to be ridicoulus

.

I'm waiting for your opinions
Thank you in advance and regards!

ariel · 20th December 2005, 03:39 PM

We usually attribute those to Persia and call them Qama, but I have never seen the "sword" -size one: at the most, they are large kindjals, up to 25inch total or thereabouts. This one is huge and obviously could not be used as a "kindjal", or secondary, sidearm. Should be looking elsewhere.
There is a semi-mythical Chechen sword, called Kaldan (with a crossguard, however) and there are swords with kindjal-type handles in Eastern Caucasian region (Daghestan, Chechnya). One is even illustrated in, I think, Askhabov' s book. I shall take pics.
That is what I think it is.

Rivkin · 20th December 2005, 07:18 PM

Here is another monster that was sold by Artzi (43 inches). He identifies it as persian, and the engravings are quite typical persian work (I would guess ?).

I think it is somewhat similar to your sword.

P.S. It would be really great to see the letters on your sword.

wolviex · 20th December 2005, 07:23 PM

Thank you Ariel and Rivkin.

Indeed, the handle and the fuller of Artzi's piece are the same. I'll try to take a picture of these "letters" in a few days, but can't promise.

It's good to hear you're tending to call it Persian. In one of the catalogues it was called "shamshir" - but I'm not convinced it's a proper name for such "monster"

Regards!

Oriental-Arms · 20th December 2005, 09:16 PM

Hi all

An interesting sword indeed. In all our career we have examined three such swords, all of huge dimensions (we call it Qama to end all Qamas). 42-45 inches total length, 4-5 inches wide. One of these is posted above by Rivkin. The other one is shown below:

For more details on this sword see:Huge Qama

Another similar sword is shown in Tirri’s book, page 206, Fig 143, shown next to a normal size kindjal and defined as Quadarra.

In our opinion, these are Persian, Qajar period, second half of the 19C. In spite of the well forged steel, good sharp edges and good workmanship altogether these are ceremonial swords and not a fighting weapons. They are too big and cumbersome for battle use. We have heard several suggestions as execution swords, swords used in the Ashura celebrations of the Shiites etc.

One more word on our sword posted by Rivkin: It was originally purchased in Jerusalem in 1918, wandered to the USA and returned to Israel. This gives a latest possible date for it.

ariel · 21st December 2005, 01:57 AM

Here it is, and it is, of course, from the Bible of Caucasian swords: Astvatsaturyan. It is a Khevsur Palasche. The handles on those were covered with brass, just like the regular Khevsur swords (on top). I guess, the swords under discussion in this thread are, indeed, Persian. The Khevsur ones were not ceremonial: these people were too poor to manufacture ceremonial weapons. The price of a sword labeled "David Ferrara " was 25 cows, the simple straight "pranguli" cost 10-12 cows and the simplest one, "rusuli", 2-3 cows. At prices like that nobody could afford a "toy" weapon.

wolviex · 22nd December 2005, 11:40 AM

Well, it was real pain to take this pitures, so quality isn't the best. Here you can see etched blade. On one side something what could be letters, but it's hard to see on this pics, on the second side, just etched curled lines. On both side there is picture of "humanoid".
Regards!

Rivkin · 22nd December 2005, 05:25 PM

Do you have a bigger resolution of the first picture ? The letters of two sides of a fuller are slightly reminding me of some caucasian alphabets (old georgian or even armenian).

wolviex · 22nd December 2005, 06:45 PM

I'll try to take better picture tomorrow.

wolviex · 23rd December 2005, 10:29 AM

I don't know if these picture will do, but let's make a try.I can upload bigger pics on photobucket if those posted below won't be enough.
One thing seems to be sure: these aren't Persian letters.

Thanks!

Rivkin · 23rd December 2005, 05:06 PM

looks like very strange version of armenian to me. I will try to find out more.

wolviex · 27th December 2005, 08:56 AM

Great work and thank you very much Rivkin.

No, we don't know how it finds itself in Poland, it was purchased in 1962 without any knowledge about it.

Second time, so all in all in two Polish catalogues of arms and armour, I found this sword is called SHAMSHIR

. Is this some misunderstanding or something, or do we really can call this huge, big and clumsy sword with the name od light, slick sabre?

wolviex · 28th December 2005, 01:12 PM

Hello!

I draw the letters from the blade. My skills aren't fabulous

but I hope it will do. Anyway now everything is readable (I hope). Some of the letters are damaged because of abrasion or acid.

Regards!

trajan · 28th December 2005, 06:26 PM

I have a similar piece 34 inches---is the inlay possibley Armenian too?

mita981 · 1st January 2006, 11:23 AM

both swords are persian. the larger one is a persian heavy blade which dates back before shamshir became popular. persian swords were double edge heavy blades just like that one the only problem was that it was too difficult for persian immortals to weild them thats why shamshir took over. designed in the town of shamshir in current kermanshah of iran refering to lion's tale. the curve made it much stronger and easier on impact at the same time smaller and lighter. head on collision with a heavy blade became possible with introcution of shamshir so those blades became obselete. the carvings on the sword definitely are persian carving though they are armenian and seems like it has mix of kofi but i can't make any thing out of it. kofi is hard to read in perfect writing let alone in that condition. it seems as if someone built the sword in memory of something if it is truley a 19th century. as for the second sword is persion and the writings are more modern kofi its still missing dots so its not current arabic and its not as bad as the old kofi. there are different types of swords being built even today. shamshir isn't poplur in some regions, they still like to build the heavy double edged ones but none of them are practical. i have only seen a few double edge swords that were practical but definitely not as good as shamshir.

Rivkin · 5th June 2006, 07:21 PM

Sorry wovliex - I have shown the writing to many armenians. They can read the letters (with an exception that the ones in the middle are most likely persian), but it has no apparent meaning. Astvatsaturjan wrote about unintelligeble armenian writings, and that seems to be one of them.

Any way, very rare thing - Qajar Kama with armenian signature, congratulations.

wolviex · 5th June 2006, 07:29 PM

Thank you for your efforts. I almost forgot about that thread

This sword will be presented soon on big exhibition in Gdansk/Danzig, Poland, called "Wonders of Orient". There should be quite nice arms and armor group, while one of the authors of this exhibition is tireless prof. Zygulski.

All the best
Michal

20th December 2005, 09:59 AM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Huge sword - Persia or Caucasus Hello all! I have a question. On the pictures you can see a very huge sword - 110cm/43inch. long - it's bigger than sabre The shape of the handle is like of Caucasian knives, the blade is quite solid, thick not cheap metal, but resilient, with fuller on both sides in the centre. On the blade are etched squiggles, and ornaments with letters or just pretending the letters (sorry no photo of this part). Main question is: do you think it's Caucasian or Persian - like some catalogues described it. I'm sure it's 19th century, maybe even 2nd half of the century. But what was the purpose of such huge weapon - only ceremonial? It is made very solidly, just like the weapon for use, but its size seems to be ridicoulus . I'm waiting for your opinions Thank you in advance and regards! Attached Images

20th December 2005, 07:18 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Here is another monster that was sold by Artzi (43 inches). He identifies it as persian, and the engravings are quite typical persian work (I would guess ?). I think it is somewhat similar to your sword. P.S. It would be really great to see the letters on your sword. Attached Images

20th December 2005, 09:16 PM	#5
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Huge Qama Hi all An interesting sword indeed. In all our career we have examined three such swords, all of huge dimensions (we call it Qama to end all Qamas). 42-45 inches total length, 4-5 inches wide. One of these is posted above by Rivkin. The other one is shown below: For more details on this sword see:Huge Qama Another similar sword is shown in Tirri’s book, page 206, Fig 143, shown next to a normal size kindjal and defined as Quadarra. In our opinion, these are Persian, Qajar period, second half of the 19C. In spite of the well forged steel, good sharp edges and good workmanship altogether these are ceremonial swords and not a fighting weapons. They are too big and cumbersome for battle use. We have heard several suggestions as execution swords, swords used in the Ashura celebrations of the Shiites etc. One more word on our sword posted by Rivkin: It was originally purchased in Jerusalem in 1918, wandered to the USA and returned to Israel. This gives a latest possible date for it.

21st December 2005, 01:57 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here it is, and it is, of course, from the Bible of Caucasian swords: Astvatsaturyan. It is a Khevsur Palasche. The handles on those were covered with brass, just like the regular Khevsur swords (on top). I guess, the swords under discussion in this thread are, indeed, Persian. The Khevsur ones were not ceremonial: these people were too poor to manufacture ceremonial weapons. The price of a sword labeled "David Ferrara " was 25 cows, the simple straight "pranguli" cost 10-12 cows and the simplest one, "rusuli", 2-3 cows. At prices like that nobody could afford a "toy" weapon. Attached Images

22nd December 2005, 11:40 AM	#7
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Well, it was real pain to take this pitures, so quality isn't the best. Here you can see etched blade. On one side something what could be letters, but it's hard to see on this pics, on the second side, just etched curled lines. On both side there is picture of "humanoid". Regards! Attached Images

20th December 2005, 03:39 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	We usually attribute those to Persia and call them Qama, but I have never seen the "sword" -size one: at the most, they are large kindjals, up to 25inch total or thereabouts. This one is huge and obviously could not be used as a "kindjal", or secondary, sidearm. Should be looking elsewhere. There is a semi-mythical Chechen sword, called Kaldan (with a crossguard, however) and there are swords with kindjal-type handles in Eastern Caucasian region (Daghestan, Chechnya). One is even illustrated in, I think, Askhabov' s book. I shall take pics. That is what I think it is.

20th December 2005, 07:23 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you Ariel and Rivkin. Indeed, the handle and the fuller of Artzi's piece are the same. I'll try to take a picture of these "letters" in a few days, but can't promise. It's good to hear you're tending to call it Persian. In one of the catalogues it was called "shamshir" - but I'm not convinced it's a proper name for such "monster" Regards!

22nd December 2005, 05:25 PM	#8
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Do you have a bigger resolution of the first picture ? The letters of two sides of a fuller are slightly reminding me of some caucasian alphabets (old georgian or even armenian).

22nd December 2005, 06:45 PM	#9
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	I'll try to take better picture tomorrow.

23rd December 2005, 10:29 AM	#10
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	I don't know if these picture will do, but let's make a try.I can upload bigger pics on photobucket if those posted below won't be enough. One thing seems to be sure: these aren't Persian letters. Thanks! Attached Images

23rd December 2005, 05:06 PM	#11
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	looks like very strange version of armenian to me. I will try to find out more.

27th December 2005, 08:56 AM	#12
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Great work and thank you very much Rivkin. No, we don't know how it finds itself in Poland, it was purchased in 1962 without any knowledge about it. Second time, so all in all in two Polish catalogues of arms and armour, I found this sword is called SHAMSHIR . Is this some misunderstanding or something, or do we really can call this huge, big and clumsy sword with the name od light, slick sabre?

28th December 2005, 01:12 PM	#13
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Hello! I draw the letters from the blade. My skills aren't fabulous but I hope it will do. Anyway now everything is readable (I hope). Some of the letters are damaged because of abrasion or acid. Regards!

28th December 2005, 06:26 PM	#14
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	another large piece I have a similar piece 34 inches---is the inlay possibley Armenian too? Attached Images

1st January 2006, 11:23 AM	#15
mita981 Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1	both swords are persian. the larger one is a persian heavy blade which dates back before shamshir became popular. persian swords were double edge heavy blades just like that one the only problem was that it was too difficult for persian immortals to weild them thats why shamshir took over. designed in the town of shamshir in current kermanshah of iran refering to lion's tale. the curve made it much stronger and easier on impact at the same time smaller and lighter. head on collision with a heavy blade became possible with introcution of shamshir so those blades became obselete. the carvings on the sword definitely are persian carving though they are armenian and seems like it has mix of kofi but i can't make any thing out of it. kofi is hard to read in perfect writing let alone in that condition. it seems as if someone built the sword in memory of something if it is truley a 19th century. as for the second sword is persion and the writings are more modern kofi its still missing dots so its not current arabic and its not as bad as the old kofi. there are different types of swords being built even today. shamshir isn't poplur in some regions, they still like to build the heavy double edged ones but none of them are practical. i have only seen a few double edge swords that were practical but definitely not as good as shamshir.

5th June 2006, 07:21 PM	#16
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Sorry wovliex - I have shown the writing to many armenians. They can read the letters (with an exception that the ones in the middle are most likely persian), but it has no apparent meaning. Astvatsaturjan wrote about unintelligeble armenian writings, and that seems to be one of them. Any way, very rare thing - Qajar Kama with armenian signature, congratulations.

5th June 2006, 07:29 PM	#17
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you for your efforts. I almost forgot about that thread This sword will be presented soon on big exhibition in Gdansk/Danzig, Poland, called "Wonders of Orient". There should be quite nice arms and armor group, while one of the authors of this exhibition is tireless prof. Zygulski. All the best Michal