Wierd pliers ?

[Royston]

Anyone got an idea what these are.
Supposed to have come from India.
length 14 inches.

Suggestions so far have been:- Arrow making or culinary.

Made of iron or steel.

Any comments will be most welcome.

Regards
Roy

[Emanuel]

Hmm..I was thinking maybe blacksmith tongs made from recycled ornament or element from a fence or gate but the assembly is more complex than that. One piece slots into the other...nice!

[russel]

My first thought was also blacksmith tongs.

[A. G. Maisey]

How about removal of body parts?

A device used for interrogation.

[Shakethetrees]

I think these are fancy blacksmith tongs. The box joint is a pretty sophisticated bit of smithery!

Each side of the jaws is done up as a stylized dragon head, a popular motif that I've seen around, the spear point and knob are just bits of showing off. I do not think they had any other purpose than to be pretty, functional tongs.

The hollow jaws are for gripping linear bits of hot iron while drawing out.

[Andrew]

Agreed: blacksmith tongs of some sort. My inclination is that these are farrier tongs.

Perhaps an apprentice project, as I cannot imagine a working smith spending so much time on such a tool, given a typical smithy would have dozens (if not hundreds) of tongs and similar tools.

[Andrew]

I originally thought these might be instruments for removing bullets or arrow heads from wounds, but those rear-facing double prongs on each side of the "business end" of the tongs make that only likely if one's intent was to further traumatize the wound.

Bar-stock tongs sounds about right. Perhaps for making nails. I still think the design and workmanship seems too high-quality for a typical tool, though.

[fernando]

If i may switch the complicometer ...

These don't seem much practical for frequent pick and pull moves; it would need some patience and accuracy to grab the object in a position to match it with the longitudinal section of the tongs.
More like something to be held (and not dropped) while being treated. If indeed this were smith forging tongs, then the object to forge would have to be rather long, to prevent the pliers from coming too close to the fire.
Its non simple design, lance shaped handle, horn prongs and all, besides making it appear less western, may also indicate this is a device to use under ritual circumstances.

[A Senefelder]

Fernando,

These don't seem much practical for frequent pick and pull moves; it would need some patience and accuracy to grab the object in a position to match it with the longitudinal section of the tongs.

Which is exactly why smithing takes practice ( and a willingness to suffer a burn or two ). This is however exactly how tongs are used. One utilizes them to 1) place an item into the fire as doing so by hand is an impossibility due to the intense heat, 2) to shift and item around in a fire to heat evenly or check that the item is heated to what is desired, 3) to remove the heated item from the fire, and 4) to hold the item while it is hot and being worked with a hammer or in other words the entire time the item it hot. A square piece of bar stock will not seat anywhere near as firmly in a set of tongs with flat jaws so square jaws are used, but a much smaller piece of square stock will not seat firmly if at all in a larger set of square pickup tongs so various sizes are needed. The same applies to round stock pick up tongs ect. Throw into this the ingenuity of smiths on the job who tended to make up their own tools if they did not have the right one for a job and there is a wide variety of tongs, many non standard one offs around. I have several antique 19th century tongs around that we still haven't figured out what they may have been used for. To give you some idea of the variety ( and this is a small sampling ) this is a link to one company's offerings of tongs http://www.centaurforge.com/Tongs/departments/102/ If you do a search on Epray under Collectibles, Tools,Locks, Hardware and type in " blacksmith tongs " hundreds of examples come up. I mention this only by way of illustrating the wide variety of tongs that were made over the years.

None of this means in any way that the item in the OP are square stock pick up tongs, that is simply what they look like given the 4-5 sets of them that I have both new and antique and the similarity to them in the manner in which the jaws of this item are designed and built.

Its non simple design, lance shaped handle, horn prongs and all, besides making it appear less western, may also indicate this is a device to use under ritual circumstances.

I am inclined to agree, for all the antique tools, hammers, stakes, anvils, tongs ect. I use and the hundereds more I've seen over the years of tool searching, they are all about function rather than decoration, many being very plain and baring the marks of smith made tools. This is finished and decorated to a much higher level than the metalworking tools I've encountered ( primarily America 19th century ).

[Emanuel]

What I find really nifty about these tongs is the box joint/pivot.
A lot of work must have gone into it, whereas a simple overlapping joint is much easier to make.

[spiral]

Ones modern use of forging tools, does provide good evidence of how 7 what they may do.

The fact such tools normally used in the west have no decoration may mean nothing in this context though..

In historic Hindu culture at least, many tools & most weapons carry religious or spiritual symbolism...

So Id guess the may be Indian... {Of course other cultures/religions in Africa or South AmericaI am unaware of may have done similar.}

But I think for origin we can rule out countrys where predominantly those 3 localised middle eastern origin Abrahamic religions, the Christian, Muslim or Jewish faiths preside.

But my moneys on Hindu Indian origin.

spiral

[colin henshaw]

My guess is its for removing arrows or bullets from the body, which would explain the concave inner section to the jaws, also the pointed tips to the jaws. The small spear-like blade to the handle end would be for widening the wound, if required to locate the foreign object. An explanation for the two pairs of "horns" could be to see at a glance how far the tongs/pincers had penetrated, or to facilitate tying the tongs tight over the arrowhead or bullet, before pulling out, maybe using both hands. A cord attached to the small "horns" could also help to pull out, say a barbed arrowhead.

[drac2k]

Mutilation Tools


In the Middle Ages mutilation was popular. As well as branding, Church and Civil authorities carried out a range of mutilations, lopping off hands, feet, ears, tongs, lips, noses, breasts and genitals.

In England ear lopping was particularly popular. Pamphleteers attacking the religious views of the Anglican episcopacy under William Laud, the Archbishop of Canterbury, had their ears cut off, including Dr. Alexander Leighton (1630) and John Bastwick, Henry Burton and William Prynne (1637).

In Scotland a Covenanter, James Gavin of Douglas of Lanarkshire had his ears cut off for refusing to renounce his religious faith.


The above is a reference that I found, with the tongs being used in a ghastly manner.

[Shakethetrees]

I don't have a copy but there was a collection of torture instruments and ephemera put together in the mid nineteenth century by the Marquess of Shaftesbury or Queensbury (one of them, I don't remember the exact name.). The collection went on tour in the 1890's and a catalog was published.

It is my understanding that this collection was disbursed after a disastrous fire destroyed a good portion of it some years back.

This catalog was available about twenty years ago from a dealer (I forget who it was) and I would think it might be able to be found today.

[Royston]

Thanks for all the comments Gentlemen, most "interesting"

Regards
Roy

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Royston

Thanks for all the comments Gentlemen, most "interesting"

Regards
Roy

Cheers Roy, as I recall from our meeting your a true Gent yourself.

Congratulation's on your reinstatement as Lead Euro moderator Fernando!

I hadn't noticed till now....

Spiral