Tomas De Aiala sword blade.

Norman McCormick · 11th May 2015, 09:50 PM

Hi,
Blade length 37 1/4 inches (94.5 cm) tang length 6 1/8 inches (15.5 cm). On one side TOMAS DEAIALA or TOMAS DEAIAIA other side IESVS MARIA. The I in Jesus looks like a J but upon close inspection it appears to be an I. I know there are many period and later blades with spurious markings but I'm not sure with this one. Looking forward to your thoughts.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Please excuse the photography I have no camera at the moment so the wife's phone and a little jiggery-pokery on the computer was all I could do so the photos may appear a bit photoshopped with an odd colour temperature.

Norman McCormick · 11th May 2015, 10:11 PM

Hi,
Almost identical blade re the profile and the IESVS MARIA mark, http://www.fricker-historische-waffe..._2013_engl.pdf sixth photo down and the sword above the Cinquedea. This one in obvious better condition than mine as most of the detail in mine has worn off. On my blade there are signs of use i.e. the usual small nicks and the sword still has a bit of an edge.
Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 11th May 2015, 10:17 PM

Hi,
Images from a well known auction house.
Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 11th May 2015, 11:11 PM

Hi,
Blade on mine is double edged flattened hexagonal cross section after the fuller tapering to almost lenticular very near the point.
Regards,
Norman.

Fernando K · 11th May 2015, 11:20 PM

hello

In modern silk, the name is TOMAS DE AYALA

Affectionately. Fernando K

Norman McCormick · 11th May 2015, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

hello

In modern silk, the name is TOMAS DE AYALA

Affectionately. Fernando K

Hi Fernando,
Many thanks for the input.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 12th May 2015, 12:15 AM

Hi Norman,
The TOMAS DE AIALA name was from Tomas Ayala of Madrid ( who is also noted Toledo as he was of course of these smiths) and his son Luis who was in Barcelona. They worked c.1566-1620 but more on their exact dates and locations is unclear among arms writers.
The Tomas Aiala name, like Andrea Ferara, became one of those names of famed makers which became a sort of trademark, and appeared on blades from Italy (c 1620s) and Germany later..in fact into 18th century.

The JESUS MARIA was used by Milanese armourers (Wagner, 1967, p.173) as well as apparently by the Ayalas In any case the combination of these names and variations of spurious Toledo marks often are seen.

In my opinion , the occurrence of the 'anchor' device suggests a Solingen version here probably 17th century using the Ayala 'trademark'.

I have seen rapier blades with Jesus Maria and Toledo marks as late as 18th century (with Ayala though) as a good number were discovered in a wreck off Central America in the 80s. These, like the 'Spanish Motto' blades were shipped in good numbers to Spains colonies from Solingen producers.

fernando · 12th May 2015, 01:17 PM

Therefore and most probably a XVIII century Solingen blade.
Very good catch, Norman

Norman McCormick · 12th May 2015, 04:38 PM

Jim and Fernando,
Hi guys, many thanks for your thoughts and input on this blade. A couple of points for consideration, the flukes of the anchor are in fact the terminus of the decoration around the fuller and the stock and the shank are a cross and not connected to the aforesaid decoration. The marks are engraved or punched and not etched, etching and a different spelling appears to be more common on later blades. The general style of the blade would suggest to me middle 17thC and not 18thC. I realise of course that the likelihood of it being a genuine Tomas De Aiala blade is remote in the extreme but having no blades to compare with I wasn't sure. I do think the general profile of the blade slots somewhere in the 17thC but I've been wrong before. Thanks again for your input.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 12th May 2015, 05:04 PM

I guess that, if it were a blade forged by Thomás de Ayala (as spelt in the XVIII century), during his early XVII century activity, would have his mark on the tang, in the ricasso area ....

.

Norman McCormick · 12th May 2015, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I guess that, if it were a blade forged by Thomás de Ayala (as spelt in the XVIII century), during his early XVII century activity, would have his mark on the tang, in the ricasso area ....

.

OOPS!!! Should have done my homework better.

Norman McCormick · 12th May 2015, 09:14 PM

Hi,
A very long shot here, does anybody have a hilt or parts thereof that is\are contemporary, stylistically correct for this blade and is willing to part with same?
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 13th May 2015, 12:14 AM

Norman, in reviewing this you make some good points, and I am inclined to think you may be right on 17th c attribution here. The position of the anchor as you note, as well as the style of the fuller with the profiling along each side of the blade remind me of blades I have seen of Alonso Perez. This maker of Toledo also used a similar type anchor device.
What is interesting is that one of the Perez blades was on a rapier found on the well known galleon wreck , the Atocha, which sank in 1622.

What Fernando said is also correct, the punzone used by Tomas Ayala , the crowned ST would have been at the ricasso if indeed his work. Also I am unclear on why it would be Tomas DE Aiala and not TOMAS AIALA.
As noted he was around until the time of the Perez blades, so it certainly seems plausible it could actually be the general period.....the only concerns for me would be the nature of the tang/blade which does not correspond to the blades of period rapiers if I am correct.

Next I would ask what sort of provenance might have this blade without hilt. I have seen of course, many instances of unmounted blades, notably with JESUS MARIA as previously noted from a wreck (I think there were about 40 of them). These were apparently Solingen made and probably latter 17th c. and the punzones were not Ayala. These also had the same style tang as this one.

The 'disconnect' in the 'anchor' I think possibly due to these style markings (we call them anchors, but they are stylized sigils in my opinion) seeming to have peculiarities which reflect highly nuanced symbolism.

As far as finding a hilt, it seems some of the large auction houses sometimes have 'parts' sections in their offerings (at least Wallis & Wallis used to). It would be extremely difficult to find a displaced hilt, especially of period and style to suit this blade. For me personally I think I would hold to what it is....the JESUS MARIA blade I have has always remained unmounted.
I once had a great 17th century tulwar blade but mounted on a more modern hilt..........it finally got to me and I let it go.

Just my thinking.

All the best,
Jim

11th May 2015, 09:50 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Tomas De Aiala sword blade. Hi, Blade length 37 1/4 inches (94.5 cm) tang length 6 1/8 inches (15.5 cm). On one side TOMAS DEAIALA or TOMAS DEAIAIA other side IESVS MARIA. The I in Jesus looks like a J but upon close inspection it appears to be an I. I know there are many period and later blades with spurious markings but I'm not sure with this one. Looking forward to your thoughts. Regards, Norman. P.S. Please excuse the photography I have no camera at the moment so the wife's phone and a little jiggery-pokery on the computer was all I could do so the photos may appear a bit photoshopped with an odd colour temperature. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 11th May 2015 at 10:54 PM.

11th May 2015, 10:17 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, Images from a well known auction house. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

11th May 2015, 11:11 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, Blade on mine is double edged flattened hexagonal cross section after the fuller tapering to almost lenticular very near the point. Regards, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 11th May 2015 at 11:32 PM.

12th May 2015, 05:04 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I guess that, if it were a blade forged by Thomás de Ayala (as spelt in the XVIII century), during his early XVII century activity, would have his mark on the tang, in the ricasso area .... . Attached Images

13th May 2015, 12:14 AM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Norman, in reviewing this you make some good points, and I am inclined to think you may be right on 17th c attribution here. The position of the anchor as you note, as well as the style of the fuller with the profiling along each side of the blade remind me of blades I have seen of Alonso Perez. This maker of Toledo also used a similar type anchor device. What is interesting is that one of the Perez blades was on a rapier found on the well known galleon wreck , the Atocha, which sank in 1622. What Fernando said is also correct, the punzone used by Tomas Ayala , the crowned ST would have been at the ricasso if indeed his work. Also I am unclear on why it would be Tomas DE Aiala and not TOMAS AIALA. As noted he was around until the time of the Perez blades, so it certainly seems plausible it could actually be the general period.....the only concerns for me would be the nature of the tang/blade which does not correspond to the blades of period rapiers if I am correct. Next I would ask what sort of provenance might have this blade without hilt. I have seen of course, many instances of unmounted blades, notably with JESUS MARIA as previously noted from a wreck (I think there were about 40 of them). These were apparently Solingen made and probably latter 17th c. and the punzones were not Ayala. These also had the same style tang as this one. The 'disconnect' in the 'anchor' I think possibly due to these style markings (we call them anchors, but they are stylized sigils in my opinion) seeming to have peculiarities which reflect highly nuanced symbolism. As far as finding a hilt, it seems some of the large auction houses sometimes have 'parts' sections in their offerings (at least Wallis & Wallis used to). It would be extremely difficult to find a displaced hilt, especially of period and style to suit this blade. For me personally I think I would hold to what it is....the JESUS MARIA blade I have has always remained unmounted. I once had a great 17th century tulwar blade but mounted on a more modern hilt..........it finally got to me and I let it go. Just my thinking. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 13th May 2015 at 12:27 AM.

11th May 2015, 10:11 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, Almost identical blade re the profile and the IESVS MARIA mark, http://www.fricker-historische-waffe..._2013_engl.pdf sixth photo down and the sword above the Cinquedea. This one in obvious better condition than mine as most of the detail in mine has worn off. On my blade there are signs of use i.e. the usual small nicks and the sword still has a bit of an edge. Regards, Norman.

11th May 2015, 11:20 PM	#5
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	hello In modern silk, the name is TOMAS DE AYALA Affectionately. Fernando K

12th May 2015, 12:15 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Norman, The TOMAS DE AIALA name was from Tomas Ayala of Madrid ( who is also noted Toledo as he was of course of these smiths) and his son Luis who was in Barcelona. They worked c.1566-1620 but more on their exact dates and locations is unclear among arms writers. The Tomas Aiala name, like Andrea Ferara, became one of those names of famed makers which became a sort of trademark, and appeared on blades from Italy (c 1620s) and Germany later..in fact into 18th century. The JESUS MARIA was used by Milanese armourers (Wagner, 1967, p.173) as well as apparently by the Ayalas In any case the combination of these names and variations of spurious Toledo marks often are seen. In my opinion , the occurrence of the 'anchor' device suggests a Solingen version here probably 17th century using the Ayala 'trademark'. I have seen rapier blades with Jesus Maria and Toledo marks as late as 18th century (with Ayala though) as a good number were discovered in a wreck off Central America in the 80s. These, like the 'Spanish Motto' blades were shipped in good numbers to Spains colonies from Solingen producers.

12th May 2015, 01:17 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Therefore and most probably a XVIII century Solingen blade. Very good catch, Norman

12th May 2015, 04:38 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Jim and Fernando, Hi guys, many thanks for your thoughts and input on this blade. A couple of points for consideration, the flukes of the anchor are in fact the terminus of the decoration around the fuller and the stock and the shank are a cross and not connected to the aforesaid decoration. The marks are engraved or punched and not etched, etching and a different spelling appears to be more common on later blades. The general style of the blade would suggest to me middle 17thC and not 18thC. I realise of course that the likelihood of it being a genuine Tomas De Aiala blade is remote in the extreme but having no blades to compare with I wasn't sure. I do think the general profile of the blade slots somewhere in the 17thC but I've been wrong before. Thanks again for your input. My Regards, Norman.

12th May 2015, 09:14 PM	#12
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, A very long shot here, does anybody have a hilt or parts thereof that is\are contemporary, stylistically correct for this blade and is willing to part with same? Regards, Norman.