Unknown staff come club

RSWORD · 20th October 2014, 04:38 AM

This is an interesting staff that almost certainly doubled as a club for defense purposes. It is long enough to be used as a staff measuring well over 40" in length. It features a two handed grip with 4 ball like dividers. The bottom of the staff has a long iron wrap. The iron is well done as I can't find a seam anywhere. The two handed grip reminded me a bit of some swords from India but Runjeet, who had a look at this thing, didn't believe it was Indian. The wood is octagonally faceted and so I thought it might be Asian and discussed it with Philip and he ruled out Chinese and felt it probably wasn't Korean or Japanese either. I asked Charles and Jose and they didn't have a clue and were no help at all!

It still has an Asian feel to me so am wondering if it could be Malaysian or somewhere in that area. I definitely don't get an African feel to it. Bit it means business. The iron wrap at the bottom and the two handed grip would make an effective striking weapon. So, thoughts?

Tim Simmons · 20th October 2014, 05:48 PM

Could be one of those Indian holy man weapons. Looks a nice old piece. I would think it is from Indian subcontinent, but I would not rule out Africa? I do not think to is from further east?

RSWORD · 21st October 2014, 12:19 PM

Thanks for the feedback Tim. My initial thought was India as well but in my discussion with Runjeet he ruled out India. He based that on the cross section. In his experience Indian clubs typically have a round cross section. Not to say there couldn't be a one of example. I agree we can't rule out Africa but it is unlike anything I have seen from that region as well. Does anyone have a copy of Draeger's fighting arts? Could this be Indonesian/Malaysian?

Runjeet Singh · 21st October 2014, 03:07 PM

Hi Rsword.

Permission to back peddle?! It's just that your pics make me see it in a different light, particularly picture 4. The image looks like it could be the shaft of a Persian tabar, or Bikanner all steel Indian mace! (The Muslim Knight - Furisyya collection) has a small group of these in the book.

I don't recall seeing a wooden haft shaped like this before, but I have seen iron 'faceted' like this.

It may be South Indian, one of the Dravidian tribes, and taken influence from the South Indian Sangs and other pole-arms that have the bulbous 'hand separators'. See pics of a 17thC South Indian Sang. Yours has the Bulbous globes, with a caved ring each side, this is exactly what we see on many South Indian pole-arms.

Regards
Runjeet

estcrh · 26th October 2014, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaalarms

Hi Rsword.

Permission to back peddle?! It's just that your pics make me see it in a different light, particularly picture 4. The image looks like it could be the shaft of a Persian tabar, or Bikanner all steel Indian mace!
Runjeet

I also see this as possibly a shaft for an axe or another type of weapon.

Royston · 26th October 2014, 09:29 PM

It's probably too long, but some Kudi's have carved hilts and brass studs.

Roy

colin henshaw · 26th October 2014, 12:16 PM

The faceted wood and brass upholstery nails seem to indicate Congolese origin.

RSWORD · 28th October 2014, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

The faceted wood and brass upholstery nails seem to indicate Congolese origin.

I recognize that Ngala/Ngombe swords, as well as other from the region, have a bulbous section to the grip with brass nails. However, in my experience, these African pieces do not have Octagonal faceting and the bulbous section is a different shape than on this club. On the African pieces, the bulb tends to be more diamond shape with the widest section being in the middle of the bulb. The staff is a bit more round and uniform.

Would love to see Congo examples that closely resemble the features of this staff if you have any images.

colin henshaw · 30th October 2014, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

I recognize that Ngala/Ngombe swords, as well as other from the region, have a bulbous section to the grip with brass nails. However, in my experience, these African pieces do not have Octagonal faceting and the bulbous section is a different shape than on this club. On the African pieces, the bulb tends to be more diamond shape with the widest section being in the middle of the bulb. The staff is a bit more round and uniform.

Would love to see Congo examples that closely resemble the features of this staff if you have any images.

Hi RSWORD

If you just google "congo spears" you will find some images showing faceted wood and metal. I tried to copy some images to post, but didn't seem to work...

The iron sleeve to your piece looks a bit European from the images, some close-ups of this may be useful. Is that something brass shining where it joins the wood ?

20th October 2014, 04:38 AM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Unknown staff come club This is an interesting staff that almost certainly doubled as a club for defense purposes. It is long enough to be used as a staff measuring well over 40" in length. It features a two handed grip with 4 ball like dividers. The bottom of the staff has a long iron wrap. The iron is well done as I can't find a seam anywhere. The two handed grip reminded me a bit of some swords from India but Runjeet, who had a look at this thing, didn't believe it was Indian. The wood is octagonally faceted and so I thought it might be Asian and discussed it with Philip and he ruled out Chinese and felt it probably wasn't Korean or Japanese either. I asked Charles and Jose and they didn't have a clue and were no help at all! It still has an Asian feel to me so am wondering if it could be Malaysian or somewhere in that area. I definitely don't get an African feel to it. Bit it means business. The iron wrap at the bottom and the two handed grip would make an effective striking weapon. So, thoughts? Attached Images

21st October 2014, 03:07 PM	#4
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Hi Rsword. Permission to back peddle?! It's just that your pics make me see it in a different light, particularly picture 4. The image looks like it could be the shaft of a Persian tabar, or Bikanner all steel Indian mace! (The Muslim Knight - Furisyya collection) has a small group of these in the book. I don't recall seeing a wooden haft shaped like this before, but I have seen iron 'faceted' like this. It may be South Indian, one of the Dravidian tribes, and taken influence from the South Indian Sangs and other pole-arms that have the bulbous 'hand separators'. See pics of a 17thC South Indian Sang. Yours has the Bulbous globes, with a caved ring each side, this is exactly what we see on many South Indian pole-arms. Regards Runjeet Attached Images

20th October 2014, 05:48 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Could be one of those Indian holy man weapons. Looks a nice old piece. I would think it is from Indian subcontinent, but I would not rule out Africa? I do not think to is from further east?

21st October 2014, 12:19 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Thanks for the feedback Tim. My initial thought was India as well but in my discussion with Runjeet he ruled out India. He based that on the cross section. In his experience Indian clubs typically have a round cross section. Not to say there couldn't be a one of example. I agree we can't rule out Africa but it is unlike anything I have seen from that region as well. Does anyone have a copy of Draeger's fighting arts? Could this be Indonesian/Malaysian?

26th October 2014, 09:29 PM	#6
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	It's probably too long, but some Kudi's have carved hilts and brass studs. Roy

26th October 2014, 12:16 PM	#7
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	The faceted wood and brass upholstery nails seem to indicate Congolese origin.