Cirebon buta bajang damaged ...

henri · 20th January 2013, 06:34 AM

I am curious to get your opinion on a hilt I have which is badly damaged .
This looks like a voluntary " mutilation " made by a previous owner but is there any reason to do so ? May be a relation to religious meanings ? But who can wear a so ugly hilt ?

A. G. Maisey · 20th January 2013, 08:22 AM

Probably natural cracking Henri.

Often happens when a pesi rusts and expands, but can also be caused by the wood cracking over time. If it was carved from improperly seasoned wood those cracks could have been there for a very long time.

henri · 20th January 2013, 09:19 AM

Thank you Alan for the reply . I was more talking about the fact the face and some parts of the buta bajang were removed probably with a sharp tool ...
This handle is probably old with natural cracking due to the age .

A. G. Maisey · 20th January 2013, 01:33 PM

Oh yes.

No explaining insanity Henri.

I haven't seen something like this previously, and cannot offer any explanation.

Sajen · 20th January 2013, 01:44 PM

Hello Henri,

I think that there are two possibilities for this. For the first one read this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10454. But I doubt that this is by your hilt the case. When I look to your pictures I think to see the traces of mouse or rat bites. This I have seen many times by indonesian wooden items. Indonesians eat with their hands/fingers and when they have touched after meal for example this keris hilt the taste and smell is still present at the handle and a hungry mouse/rat will try to eat it. I think this is the case by your keris hilt. Have a look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=mouse

Regards,

Detlef

Rick · 20th January 2013, 03:50 PM

I would vote for your explanation, Detlef .
Certainly does look like rodent gnaw .

henri · 20th January 2013, 08:55 PM

Thank you Detlef . Looks like you are right ! Most of the "bites" are uncontrolled . Probably some parts of this hilt were more or less spicy

Loedjoe · 21st January 2013, 10:55 AM

I have heard, as an 'explanation' for a piece missing from the nose of a hilt, that it was taken off for use as, or in, a medicine. This may be a way of explaining away damage, or may have some truth in it, especially if a piece is actually cut off, rather than broken? However, if a piece is used for medicinal purposes, why take it from the most obvious, highly visible part of the hilt? Medicinal use of a piece taken off the base of a hilt was mentoned by 'sipakatuo', 18 July 2009, in the thread 'Question about Bugis hilts'.

Sajen · 21st January 2013, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loedjoe

I have heard, as an 'explanation' for a piece missing from the nose of a hilt, that it was taken off for use as, or in, a medicine. This may be a way of explaining away damage, or may have some truth in it, especially if a piece is actually cut off, rather than broken? However, if a piece is used for medicinal purposes, why take it from the most obvious, highly visible part of the hilt? Medicinal use of a piece taken off the base of a hilt was mentoned by 'sipakatuo', 18 July 2009, in the thread 'Question about Bugis hilts'.

Sorry, think that you this have understand wrong. The dent at the base by this handles is natural. Carved away pieces for medicine I have seen in up, not only at the nose. But frankly said this I never have seen by handles from Java. Only Bugis and Sumatra handles I have seen like this but very few.

Regards,

Detlef

T. Koch · 21st January 2013, 08:56 PM

Damn, that's a nice catch Detlef! The damage to the left side of the face and arm sure looks like a rodent went to town on this one.

Very cool and nicely spotted!

Cheers, - Thor

Sajen · 21st January 2013, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Damn, that's a nice catch Detlef! The damage to the left side of the face and arm sure looks like a rodent went to town on this one.

Very cool and nicely spotted!

Cheers, - Thor

Hi Thor, the handle belong to Henri.

Regards,

Detlef

henri · 22nd January 2013, 01:57 AM

I am not really proud of this one Thor and probably will go with other " ghost
handles " into a dusty drawer ! But ... what a lot I learned!
Thank you all for your comments .

20th January 2013, 06:34 AM	#1
henri Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 81	Cirebon buta bajang damaged ... I am curious to get your opinion on a hilt I have which is badly damaged . This looks like a voluntary " mutilation " made by a previous owner but is there any reason to do so ? May be a relation to religious meanings ? But who can wear a so ugly hilt ? Attached Images

20th January 2013, 01:44 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Henri, I think that there are two possibilities for this. For the first one read this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10454. But I doubt that this is by your hilt the case. When I look to your pictures I think to see the traces of mouse or rat bites. This I have seen many times by indonesian wooden items. Indonesians eat with their hands/fingers and when they have touched after meal for example this keris hilt the taste and smell is still present at the handle and a hungry mouse/rat will try to eat it. I think this is the case by your keris hilt. Have a look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=mouse Regards, Detlef Last edited by Sajen; 20th January 2013 at 02:00 PM. Reason: Providing links

22nd January 2013, 01:57 AM	#12
henri Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 81	I am not really proud of this one Thor and probably will go with other " ghost handles " into a dusty drawer ! But ... what a lot I learned! Thank you all for your comments . Last edited by henri; 22nd January 2013 at 09:45 AM.

20th January 2013, 08:22 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Probably natural cracking Henri. Often happens when a pesi rusts and expands, but can also be caused by the wood cracking over time. If it was carved from improperly seasoned wood those cracks could have been there for a very long time.

20th January 2013, 09:19 AM	#3
henri Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 81	Thank you Alan for the reply . I was more talking about the fact the face and some parts of the buta bajang were removed probably with a sharp tool ... This handle is probably old with natural cracking due to the age .

20th January 2013, 01:33 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Oh yes. No explaining insanity Henri. I haven't seen something like this previously, and cannot offer any explanation.

20th January 2013, 03:50 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I would vote for your explanation, Detlef . Certainly does look like rodent gnaw .

20th January 2013, 08:55 PM	#7
henri Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 81	Thank you Detlef . Looks like you are right ! Most of the "bites" are uncontrolled . Probably some parts of this hilt were more or less spicy

21st January 2013, 10:55 AM	#8
Loedjoe Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Oxford (UK) Posts: 96	I have heard, as an 'explanation' for a piece missing from the nose of a hilt, that it was taken off for use as, or in, a medicine. This may be a way of explaining away damage, or may have some truth in it, especially if a piece is actually cut off, rather than broken? However, if a piece is used for medicinal purposes, why take it from the most obvious, highly visible part of the hilt? Medicinal use of a piece taken off the base of a hilt was mentoned by 'sipakatuo', 18 July 2009, in the thread 'Question about Bugis hilts'.

21st January 2013, 08:56 PM	#10
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Damn, that's a nice catch Detlef! The damage to the left side of the face and arm sure looks like a rodent went to town on this one. Very cool and nicely spotted! Cheers, - Thor