SMALL PERCUSSION BOX-LOCK FOR COMMENT

Fernando K · 28th December 2012, 06:55 PM

Hola:

Se trata de una pequeña pistola de percusión, llave de caja, disparador oculto y cañon desenroscable, producida en Bélgica. Mide en total 11,2 cm. y el cañon 3,3 cm., con empuñadura de marfil, calibre de alrededor de 9mm. En el costado izquierdo tiene el punzón del Banco de Pruebas de Lieja (Liege), ELG con un asterisco en un óvalo. Debajo, el número 19 y lo que parece ser 11+ ( o 114), y que no corresponde al calibre, en mm. o en balas por libra. El grabado ha sido estampado y el dibujo se ha realizado con punzones.
El cañon presenta (para mí) un falso damasco, está micro-estriado y se desenrosca mediante 4 muescas en la boca, que admiten el destornillador.
La pregunta es la siguiente ¿Como se cargaba? El cuerpo solo tiene un pequeño canal que comunica a la chimenea con el cañon, y parece que no hubiera cabida para polvora y bala antes de volver a enroscar el cañon.
Para mi, sigue siendo de avancarga y no es de "bala forzada".
No poseo la caja (con un par de pistolitas, habitualmente) y he visto en algunas fotografías lo que parece ser una baqueta de carga. ¿El desenroscado solo sería para limpieza, y por construcción?

Afectuosamente., Fernando K

This is a small percussion box lock pistol with a turn off barrel, concealed trigger, produced in Belgium. It measures 11.2 cm in total, with a 3.3 cm cannon length. The caliber is circa 9mm. The handle is in ivory. On the left side has the Liege proof mark, ELG with an asterisk in an oval. Below, the number 19 and what appears to be 11 + (or 114), which does not correspond to the caliber in mm. or bullets per pound. The pattern was stamped and the design was carried out with punches.
The barrel has (for me) a false damask. It has a micro groove rifling and turns off by means of 4 notches in the mouth, using an adequate key.
The question is: How was it loaded? The body only has a small channel that links the chimney with the barrel, and it seems that there was no room for gunpowder and bullet before screwing back the barrel.
For me, this is a muzzle loader and not a "forced bullet " pistol.
I do not have the respective case (with a pair of pistols, usually) and I've seen in some pictures what looks like a ramrod. Would the unscrewing be only for cleaning and construction?

.

Fernando K · 28th December 2012, 07:23 PM

Pics:

Fernando K · 28th December 2012, 07:31 PM

More Pics:

Fernando K

fernando · 29th December 2012, 12:26 PM

Hola Fernando,
Very nice little pistol, with its ivory grip.
The damascus decoration looks consistent with that applied by Liege gunsmiths. Look here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=crolle

and here:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...damas%20fr.htm

Concerning the loading system, i would say this is not a muzzle loader but a 'forced bullet' example. These breeches are usually very small, specially in a gun of such short barrel, thus needing a very small amount of gunpowder and bullet size. On the other hand, it would be unreasonable to build a turn off barrel only for the cleaning of a breech you could easily reach from the muzzle of such tiny gun.
Let's hear from other members about this.

dana_w · 29th December 2012, 01:31 PM

This is another example of a late turn-off barrel pistol, which some people mistakenly call a Queen Ann. Much like your previous post, just using a percussion cap. There can be little doubt that it is a breech loader.

Unscrewing (turning off) the barrel reveals a chamber at the breech that is easily filled with a precise amount of gunpowder. The lead ball fits in a cup on top of the powder. When screwed back on the ball fits tightly in the barrel making the wadding used in a muzzleloader unnecessary. When fired the increased pressure made possible by the tight fit added to both range and accuracy. The tight fit also made it easier to carry loaded for long periods of time than a muzzleloader.

FYI: my avatar is a rifled turn-off barrel pistol c1690.

Fernando K · 29th December 2012, 11:15 PM

Hello, Fernando and Dana:

I still have many doubts .... Here I upload a picture (I have no scanner) from an Italian magazine of a sale of a pair of pistols, like the one we are dealing, in box with accessories What is it but a stick load, which is above and to the left?
Fernando: In the link you provided me, or something similar Internet, described the "false damask", made with a drawing eaten by acid. I think this is the case. I have some real Damascus barrels with very little contrast between the different kinds of steel, but with different coloring.
It strikes me, in the pepper-box deep surface contrast. I am attaching the barrel of a muzzle-loading pistol Spanish, cheap, with the barrel etched to mimic the damask.
It's easier to scratch the barrel, this is separate from the body, and to clean it once manufactured.

Affectionately. Fernando K

28th December 2012, 06:55 PM	#1
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	SMALL PERCUSSION BOX-LOCK FOR COMMENT Hola: Se trata de una pequeña pistola de percusión, llave de caja, disparador oculto y cañon desenroscable, producida en Bélgica. Mide en total 11,2 cm. y el cañon 3,3 cm., con empuñadura de marfil, calibre de alrededor de 9mm. En el costado izquierdo tiene el punzón del Banco de Pruebas de Lieja (Liege), ELG con un asterisco en un óvalo. Debajo, el número 19 y lo que parece ser 11+ ( o 114), y que no corresponde al calibre, en mm. o en balas por libra. El grabado ha sido estampado y el dibujo se ha realizado con punzones. El cañon presenta (para mí) un falso damasco, está micro-estriado y se desenrosca mediante 4 muescas en la boca, que admiten el destornillador. La pregunta es la siguiente ¿Como se cargaba? El cuerpo solo tiene un pequeño canal que comunica a la chimenea con el cañon, y parece que no hubiera cabida para polvora y bala antes de volver a enroscar el cañon. Para mi, sigue siendo de avancarga y no es de "bala forzada". No poseo la caja (con un par de pistolitas, habitualmente) y he visto en algunas fotografías lo que parece ser una baqueta de carga. ¿El desenroscado solo sería para limpieza, y por construcción? Afectuosamente., Fernando K This is a small percussion box lock pistol with a turn off barrel, concealed trigger, produced in Belgium. It measures 11.2 cm in total, with a 3.3 cm cannon length. The caliber is circa 9mm. The handle is in ivory. On the left side has the Liege proof mark, ELG with an asterisk in an oval. Below, the number 19 and what appears to be 11 + (or 114), which does not correspond to the caliber in mm. or bullets per pound. The pattern was stamped and the design was carried out with punches. The barrel has (for me) a false damask. It has a micro groove rifling and turns off by means of 4 notches in the mouth, using an adequate key. The question is: How was it loaded? The body only has a small channel that links the chimney with the barrel, and it seems that there was no room for gunpowder and bullet before screwing back the barrel. For me, this is a muzzle loader and not a "forced bullet " pistol. I do not have the respective case (with a pair of pistols, usually) and I've seen in some pictures what looks like a ramrod. Would the unscrewing be only for cleaning and construction? . Last edited by fernando; 28th December 2012 at 08:13 PM. Reason: Translation re-upload

28th December 2012, 07:23 PM	#2
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Pics: Attached Images

28th December 2012, 07:31 PM	#3
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	More Pics: Fernando K Attached Images

29th December 2012, 01:31 PM	#5
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 429	This is another example of a late turn-off barrel pistol, which some people mistakenly call a Queen Ann. Much like your previous post, just using a percussion cap. There can be little doubt that it is a breech loader. Unscrewing (turning off) the barrel reveals a chamber at the breech that is easily filled with a precise amount of gunpowder. The lead ball fits in a cup on top of the powder. When screwed back on the ball fits tightly in the barrel making the wadding used in a muzzleloader unnecessary. When fired the increased pressure made possible by the tight fit added to both range and accuracy. The tight fit also made it easier to carry loaded for long periods of time than a muzzleloader. FYI: my avatar is a rifled turn-off barrel pistol c1690. Last edited by dana_w; 29th December 2012 at 01:35 PM. Reason: Added postscript

29th December 2012, 11:15 PM	#6
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello, Fernando and Dana: I still have many doubts .... Here I upload a picture (I have no scanner) from an Italian magazine of a sale of a pair of pistols, like the one we are dealing, in box with accessories What is it but a stick load, which is above and to the left? Fernando: In the link you provided me, or something similar Internet, described the "false damask", made with a drawing eaten by acid. I think this is the case. I have some real Damascus barrels with very little contrast between the different kinds of steel, but with different coloring. It strikes me, in the pepper-box deep surface contrast. I am attaching the barrel of a muzzle-loading pistol Spanish, cheap, with the barrel etched to mimic the damask. It's easier to scratch the barrel, this is separate from the body, and to clean it once manufactured. Affectionately. Fernando K Attached Images

29th December 2012, 12:26 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hola Fernando, Very nice little pistol, with its ivory grip. The damascus decoration looks consistent with that applied by Liege gunsmiths. Look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=crolle and here: http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...damas%20fr.htm Concerning the loading system, i would say this is not a muzzle loader but a 'forced bullet' example. These breeches are usually very small, specially in a gun of such short barrel, thus needing a very small amount of gunpowder and bullet size. On the other hand, it would be unreasonable to build a turn off barrel only for the cleaning of a breech you could easily reach from the muzzle of such tiny gun. Let's hear from other members about this.