Unknown Venezian(?) "marine" dagger

eftihis · 1st June 2011, 03:10 PM

I bought this under the description "Venezian marine dagger". I have never seen something similar, but it is obviouw that the patina of the blade is more than 300-400 years old. Also the end of the blade has a shape that reminds swords with similar finials on engravings on 16th -17th centuries.
Any ideas?

fernando · 1st June 2011, 03:16 PM

I wouldn't know what it is but ... i find it fascinating !
Hope someone comes up with some info.

Atlantia · 1st June 2011, 04:07 PM

I'd have said it's a small version of hay or reed knife.

It does look fantastically old though! Interesting thing.

Jim McDougall · 1st June 2011, 06:55 PM

An extremely unusual piece....looks like a flyssa from Star Trek!!!

Seriously though, I think Gene is pretty close in his observation. In looking into Boccia & Coelho's huge reference "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Milan, 1975), there a two examples of these open handled tool/weapon kinds of edged weapon. Fig. 729 in the book shows one of these with an open handle (suggesting utilitarian application) but with a curious hooklike appendage extending from the pommel. It is basically listed as a short sabre (storta) and noted as from Moriana (a county in Brescia, also included in the Venetian Republic, La Serenissima, in the 18th century) so would correspond in the period likely for the posted item.

The other example is somewhat more like the hilt in the one posted, but the blade simply clipped diagonally at the widened tip. This example is captioned end of the 14th c. and as a 'guisarme' from Parma, but no photos, just a silhouette.

What this translates into to me is that this may well be a fascine knife of sorts, which was actually a tool/weapon of 17th-19th c. usually used by artillery troops. As a tool it served to cut bundles of sticks for lining sides of trenches and emplacements, and doubled of course as a weapon. The serrated edges on this one may be associated with later dentated 'pioneer' swords which had a sawlike appearance.

It is interesting that the guisarme was essentially a polearm which often had a hook like seen on the Moriana example, and often strangely profiled blades much as these tool/weapons often did. As polearms these were often termed 'billhooks' as they had the curious hook from side of blade typically. I just bring that up to show the close association between tool and weapon in many cases.

The example in Boccia & Coelho from Moriana c. 18th c. though listed in thier reference as a tool/weapon, is highly decorated and handsomely made with sharply chiseled features etc. and pierced decoration in blade. This would be well in line with the skilled artisans of Brescia who were well known for thier pierced fretwork in cuphilt rapiers earlier.

I would suggest this may be a fascine knife of probably 17th century, and the 'marine' attribution and 'Venezian' due to the presence of ground troops who served in regular campaigns as well as occasionally in galleys as required. The Venetian gunners were of course the source of the storied 'bombardier stillettos' which were guaged on the blade, and since weapons were prohibited to citizens, many stillettos fashioned accordingly to pass off as in military use. Perhaps these curiously profiled blades in Venetian regions may have been so made to be declared 'tools', or in fact actually issued to artillery support troops. Since Brescia was so far inland, of course these notes are simply speculation suggesting possible reasons in associating these items.

All the best,
Jim

eftihis · 1st June 2011, 08:45 PM

Jim, fantastic information as always! I didnt know about fascine knifes, thank you! who knows maybe somebody has seen a similar example, but if is not in the Boccia & Coelho's book, i guess its a tough enigma...

Jim McDougall · 2nd June 2011, 12:45 AM

You bet Eftihis!

This one was a fun adventure as I've never seen anything like that either, and its often surprising when a seller assessment is pretty much on target (too many faux paus on ebay etc.). An interesting symbolic note, the fasces which is the old Roman image has almost literally the same root as the fascine knife...the bundle of these sticks with an axe head projecting from it.
I get the idea that these were often pretty much one off, so aside from possibly seldom seen Italian collections, it would be tough to find another I would imagine.....but then, I always hope that someone lurking out there might have one or seen one

Thank you so much for posting this Eftihis,
All the best,
Jim

1st June 2011, 03:10 PM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Unknown Venezian(?) "marine" dagger I bought this under the description "Venezian marine dagger". I have never seen something similar, but it is obviouw that the patina of the blade is more than 300-400 years old. Also the end of the blade has a shape that reminds swords with similar finials on engravings on 16th -17th centuries. Any ideas? Attached Images

1st June 2011, 06:55 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	An extremely unusual piece....looks like a flyssa from Star Trek!!! Seriously though, I think Gene is pretty close in his observation. In looking into Boccia & Coelho's huge reference "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Milan, 1975), there a two examples of these open handled tool/weapon kinds of edged weapon. Fig. 729 in the book shows one of these with an open handle (suggesting utilitarian application) but with a curious hooklike appendage extending from the pommel. It is basically listed as a short sabre (storta) and noted as from Moriana (a county in Brescia, also included in the Venetian Republic, La Serenissima, in the 18th century) so would correspond in the period likely for the posted item. The other example is somewhat more like the hilt in the one posted, but the blade simply clipped diagonally at the widened tip. This example is captioned end of the 14th c. and as a 'guisarme' from Parma, but no photos, just a silhouette. What this translates into to me is that this may well be a fascine knife of sorts, which was actually a tool/weapon of 17th-19th c. usually used by artillery troops. As a tool it served to cut bundles of sticks for lining sides of trenches and emplacements, and doubled of course as a weapon. The serrated edges on this one may be associated with later dentated 'pioneer' swords which had a sawlike appearance. It is interesting that the guisarme was essentially a polearm which often had a hook like seen on the Moriana example, and often strangely profiled blades much as these tool/weapons often did. As polearms these were often termed 'billhooks' as they had the curious hook from side of blade typically. I just bring that up to show the close association between tool and weapon in many cases. The example in Boccia & Coelho from Moriana c. 18th c. though listed in thier reference as a tool/weapon, is highly decorated and handsomely made with sharply chiseled features etc. and pierced decoration in blade. This would be well in line with the skilled artisans of Brescia who were well known for thier pierced fretwork in cuphilt rapiers earlier. I would suggest this may be a fascine knife of probably 17th century, and the 'marine' attribution and 'Venezian' due to the presence of ground troops who served in regular campaigns as well as occasionally in galleys as required. The Venetian gunners were of course the source of the storied 'bombardier stillettos' which were guaged on the blade, and since weapons were prohibited to citizens, many stillettos fashioned accordingly to pass off as in military use. Perhaps these curiously profiled blades in Venetian regions may have been so made to be declared 'tools', or in fact actually issued to artillery support troops. Since Brescia was so far inland, of course these notes are simply speculation suggesting possible reasons in associating these items. All the best, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 2nd June 2011 at 12:46 AM.

1st June 2011, 03:16 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I wouldn't know what it is but ... i find it fascinating ! Hope someone comes up with some info.

1st June 2011, 04:07 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I'd have said it's a small version of hay or reed knife. It does look fantastically old though! Interesting thing.

1st June 2011, 08:45 PM	#5
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Jim, fantastic information as always! I didnt know about fascine knifes, thank you! who knows maybe somebody has seen a similar example, but if is not in the Boccia & Coelho's book, i guess its a tough enigma...

2nd June 2011, 12:45 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	You bet Eftihis! This one was a fun adventure as I've never seen anything like that either, and its often surprising when a seller assessment is pretty much on target (too many faux paus on ebay etc.). An interesting symbolic note, the fasces which is the old Roman image has almost literally the same root as the fascine knife...the bundle of these sticks with an axe head projecting from it. I get the idea that these were often pretty much one off, so aside from possibly seldom seen Italian collections, it would be tough to find another I would imagine.....but then, I always hope that someone lurking out there might have one or seen one Thank you so much for posting this Eftihis, All the best, Jim