rapier

[urbanspaceman]

Two things:
first I am almost finished my book on the history of the Shotley Bridge swordmakers; I will keep you posted.
Second, I know some of you chaps are knowledgeable with regard to swept hilt rapiers;
can anyone identify these markings for me please.

[fernando]

Excelent sword.
At first sight the name on the blade resembles one of the SAHAGUN family, but the full lettering doesn't match. Neither the mark figures in the Spanish (Toledan) smiths chart. If i may talk nonsense, it looks more like a city (place) emblem, rather than a smith's personal mark.
Hopefully experienced members may have better sugestions to offer.


.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Two things:
first I am almost finished my book on the history of the Shotley Bridge swordmakers; I will keep you posted.
Second, I know some of you chaps are knowledgeable with regard to swept hilt rapiers;
can anyone identify these markings for me please.

A nice swept hilt of late 16th early 17th, and seems of course hilted in Italian/Spanish style (the depression in grip held a bar to hold wire wrap).
As far as I can tell, the blade 'inscription' is an assembly of the letters from 'SAHAGUM' (the Spanish maker and place name) interspersed with known marks and styled letters of other inscriptions.

The geometric device or sigil inside the shield is stylized type of markings well known in S. Germany, particularly Munich and Passau. There are numerous examples of the devices with the arms in various positions and configuration.
While a specific match is at this point unlikely, it seems armourers adopted variations of these without particular assignment or registration.
Though markings compendiums often are aligned with a certain maker, these are presumably associations taken from identified weapon examples.
Armourers provided not just one type of weapon, but often whatever was needed.

[Jim McDougall]

Just checking Wallace Coll. (Mann, 1962) and in the markings, there are numerous similar markings in the plates shown as Nuremberg (city markings). This would be accord with the suggestion placed by Fernando that a 'city' mark might be applicable, the shield shape also lends to that.

[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you Gentlemen.

This SAHAGUM business is all new to me, as you would expect - considering my field has been limited to all associations with Shotley Bridge, However, it appears - and please correct me if I'm wrong - that like the Andrea Ferraro script, it was used almost indiscriminately by Solingen smiths... or perhaps the Cologne marketplace adding it to blades according to destination.
Jim you are well-versed on Passau Wolf history: was it used on sword-blades like this actually made in Bavaria?
There seems to be plenty of blades with the Passau Wolf and SAHAGUM around.
How do you know if it is a genuine or not?
That said, your suggestions of a city mark also seem viable.
The sun symbol looks familiar but I can't remember from where.
Also, mostly I see a flattened diamond shape blade profile on these swords; were variations in blade styles common?
Please keep suggestions coming if possible.

What you say about armourers supplying on demand makes sense to me Jim: I have a trefoil hollow-blade Smallsword made by Gill (complete with all his warranty marks etc) with a 27 inch blade length; apparently a one-off made for a Naval Officer (hence the short blade). No-one I have spoken to seems aware of any such sword ever coming from Gill.

[urbanspaceman]

Here's some pics of that Gill Smallsword just in case anyone is curious.

[Jim McDougall]

This pierced steel small sword is characteristic English 1790s, and were popularized by Boulton and several others of the time. It is VERY unusual to see this type blade by Gill, but not surprising given his profound activism in promoting the English blade making industry.
The signature and warranted slogan are distinctly his.

On the rapier blade, I am noticing this is not the Sahagum as presumed but the double I, and S's were I think invocation related and the mill rind (cogwheel) a well known marking element often seen in groupings.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Here's some pics of that Gill Smallsword just in case anyone is curious.

I would note here again, pierced steel hilt as in 1790s type British small swords but this looks like a 'duelling epee' of the sort worn as a dress or court sword by British gentry and probably officers. Such swords were de rigueur in these times as status accouterments.
They recall 'transitional' rapiers but in this later period of course would be traditionally recalling these earlier forms, as with fencing versions.