Blade origin of Manding sword?

blue lander · 25th March 2014, 07:01 PM

I recently picked up this Manding sword and I'm curious about the origin of the blade. From a distance it looks like an old European saber, but up close it's very roughly finished. The blade shape is odd too, it looks it was reworked to have a pointy tip and and a false edge. If you run your hands down the side of the blade, it feels wavy, as if the thickness of the blade keeps changing.

I wonder if it's a locally made approximation of a European saber blade, or if it's a saber that's been heavily worked over with a file and chisel? The blade's 25mm wide and 7mm thick at the hilt. The spine is square and also covered in file marks.

Tim Simmons · 25th March 2014, 07:10 PM

These short sabres are nearly always native blades in my experience. They are somewhat rough and ready in finish but are actually very good quality blades. It would be very nice to learn more about there manufacture. Are they nomad/semi nomad production? What is the quality of the tools use? Are the anvils stone? and so much more.

blue lander · 25th March 2014, 07:18 PM

Interesting. I had read that they were usually French or British infantry sabers. But every time I see one go up for auction they seem to have locally made blades. I have another one that has a very crudely made blade that's still covered in scale and hammer marks.

Interesting thing about the hilt and scabbard - the bottom of the scabbard is dried out and faded, while the upper scabbard and hilt are dark and shiny. I guess the body oil of the previous owner kept the leather in good condition.

Jim McDougall · 25th March 2014, 08:39 PM

Actually the blades on these Manding sabres that I have seen often have military sabre blades, typically from French cavalry sabres which of course were prevalent in these regions . These typically came of course from French occupied areas and were often Solingen made, the name Holler on many of them . These blades often became mounted in the Tuareg curved form of the takouba termed the 'aljuinar' (as per data from Lee Jones).
I have even seen English blades by MOLE in these.

The blade has a cross section with the fuller in a depression termed 'hollow ground', characteristic of these 19th century military swords and not as far as I have known, ever produced in the more basic blade production of native artisans. While this one is heavily ground down so markings etc are gone, this hollow ground fuller is still visible. While native armourers are known to have been remarkably skilled at forging and fashioning quality blades, they did not have the industrial equipment to produce these hollow ground blades.

It would of course be hard to say exactly how this guardless hilt sabre form developed but since the Manding were primary factors of the trade routes and entrepots in Timbouctou and others they would have had considerable exposure to incoming influences. Since much of this trade was networked from as far as Zanzibar which was of course the key entrepot of the Omani Sultanate.It has long been my personal opinion that the cylindrical hilt well known with Omani merchants and their 'kattaras' may have travelled on these routes through the African interior, trans-Sahara and into Mali.
While the distinct cylindrical type hilts developed in Muscat and in the case of available trade sabre blades became the curved version of these swords, perhaps the Manding version of these came from these, with the instance f using such trade or otherwise acquired European sabre blades.

Years ago the compelling connections between the curious baselard like weapon with 'H' shape hilt termed the 'Zanzibar' sword by Demmin (1877) via Burton (1884) and corrected by Buttin (1933) ...and the Moroccan sboula were shown. Clearly these weapons were one in the same and connected via these same trade routes and entrepots.

I have personally considered many African edged weapons to be 'reflective' of many outside influences, and becoming the now distinctive forms often regarded as indigenous to their respective regions.

Tim Simmons · 25th March 2014, 08:48 PM

Yes the larger versions are always made from European sword blade. This example is a shorter lighter version.

blue lander · 25th March 2014, 09:30 PM

Ah, okay. The blade on this one is 62cm long.

Quote:

The blade has a cross section with the fuller in a depression termed 'hollow ground', characteristic of these 19th century military swords and not as far as I have known, ever produced in the more basic blade production of native artisans. While this one is heavily ground down so markings etc are gone, this hollow ground fuller is still visible. While native armourers are known to have been remarkably skilled at forging and fashioning quality blades, they did not have the industrial equipment to produce these hollow ground blades.

I didn't want to insult the capabilities of the native blacksmiths, especially after owning a couple of very nice native made Kaskaras which I admire very much, but my gut instinct was that this was a little too refined to have been made by hand over there. I do still wonder what this started out as, since the blade is much more curved than the 19th century sabers I own. It reminded me more of a Polish szabla or a turkish blade.

Another data point: I flexed the blade by hand and the "false edge" tip of the blade permanently bent very easily (I won't be trying this again). The rest of the blade resisted fine, so maybe the tip had been weakened since material removed to make the false edge. I bent it back straight just as easily. The only two European swords I have are an 1867 Austrian infantry officer's saber and an 1889 Prussian cavarly degen. Both easily resisted the same amount of pressure without taking a permanent bend.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th March 2014, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually the blades on these Manding sabres that I have seen often have military sabre blades, typically from French cavalry sabres which of course were prevalent in these regions . These typically came of course from French occupied areas and were often Solingen made, the name Holler on many of them . These blades often became mounted in the Tuareg curved form of the takouba termed the 'aljuinar' (as per data from Lee Jones).
I have even seen English blades by MOLE in these.

The blade has a cross section with the fuller in a depression termed 'hollow ground', characteristic of these 19th century military swords and not as far as I have known, ever produced in the more basic blade production of native artisans. While this one is heavily ground down so markings etc are gone, this hollow ground fuller is still visible. While native armourers are known to have been remarkably skilled at forging and fashioning quality blades, they did not have the industrial equipment to produce these hollow ground blades.

It would of course be hard to say exactly how this guardless hilt sabre form developed but since the Manding were primary factors of the trade routes and entrepots in Timbouctou and others they would have had considerable exposure to incoming influences. Since much of this trade was networked from as far as Zanzibar which was of course the key entrepot of the Omani Sultanate.It has long been my personal opinion that the cylindrical hilt well known with Omani merchants and their 'kattaras' may have travelled on these routes through the African interior, trans-Sahara and into Mali.
While the distinct cylindrical type hilts developed in Muscat and in the case of available trade sabre blades became the curved version of these swords, perhaps the Manding version of these came from these, with the instance f using such trade or otherwise acquired European sabre blades.

Years ago the compelling connections between the curious baselard like weapon with 'H' shape hilt termed the 'Zanzibar' sword by Demmin (1877) via Burton (1884) and corrected by Buttin (1933) ...and the Moroccan sboula were shown. Clearly these weapons were one in the same and connected via these same trade routes and entrepots.

I have personally considered many African edged weapons to be 'reflective' of many outside influences, and becoming the now distinctive forms often regarded as indigenous to their respective regions.

Salaams Jim..et al ...This has to be one of the most important threads viz-a-viz influence in and around Manding and Omani sword forms. Did the Manding influence the Omani Kattara? ( the curved slave captains / merchant sword) We know the hilt from that was copied onto the invented straight Omani Dancing Sayf in or just after 1744 when it became the heraldic and pageant sword in praise of the Sultan;The Busaidi Dynastic Sword.
The hilt may be described as a long flattened connical hilt often accompanied with a counterbalacing pommel. A view of the slave trade would possibly help members appreciate the scope for influence in this regard..thus see below.

Please note forums "Kattara for Comments" thread which has copious notes and diagrams / maps of the infamous Omani slave trader Tipputip pictured here, who essentially controlled the major part of internal Africa for slavery (he personally owned 10,000 slaves)...the main exit and collecting point being Zanzibar and the entire Zanj region of Africa. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments

There is a very good exchange of ideas touching the subject at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=mendinka

See also #5 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=omani+kattara

In conclusion, it would seem obvious that any influence from one regional sword to another would have flowed along the same lines as the trade /slavery routes. It seems to me that the actual fusion of ideas on Omani hilts was in distinct phases... Firstly from slaver sword style to Kattara: West to Central Africa. Then Central Africa to East Africa and Zanj/Zanzibar. The simple final step being from Kattara to the newly invented Omani Dancing Sayf in about 1744.

The Manding being central to the theme.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 27th March 2014, 03:36 AM

Some great questions here. Most notably, why in the world would a native armourer fabricate a hollow ground blade in European style, only to be dramatically ground down and cut down along with completely changing the tip? Further, why and how would they do that from scrap?

The Manding regions expand throughout French West Africa, with those French occupied regions including Mauritania, Mali (French Sudan), French Guinea, Cote d' Ivoire, Burkina Faso, Dahomey and Niger.
To the north were French occupied regions of Algeria, later Tunisia and Morocco.

I do not find it surprising that with this presence throughout these regions that military sabre blades would become available to native armourers. It should be noted of course that while French blades were typically from French producers they were also widely from Solingen. In the case of this extremely 'worked' blade there is no longer the opportunity for normal identification from markings.
It seems worthy to note as well that trade blades of course were heavily brought into North Africa through various points to be traded into Saharan and Sudanese regions, but these were typically broadsword blades, not sabre blades.
I would mention again the Tuareg curved versions of the takouba (termed ajuinar) are known in Mali and another I have seen from Burkina Faso had a British curved sabre blade by MOLE. Others have been seen with marked French sabre blades, but as noted, these are not typically reduced down like this one.

The distinct resemblance of the Manding sabre to the cylindrical hilt of the Omani 'kattara' (and examples of these with curved blades) as noted do bring thoughts toward a connection.
It would seem that any connections or similarities must have been transmitted through networking and of course not by direct contact with Omani merchants or slavers. I have pointed out influences between Zanzibar and as far as Morocco and of course Mali in the open cylindrical hilt of these sabres and the 'Zanzibar' sword and their similarities, but must admit these remain circumstantial.

While Omani traders did not move inland, other Arab traders connected did set up bases and networks on the mainland. It is through these networks that I believe any influences must have been diffused. It is interesting that the Maasai sword with cylindrical hilt known as the seme' seems to have been in the direct path and regions of these networks.

blue lander · 27th March 2014, 03:50 AM

I took some side by side photos to give a little more context.
1 side by side with a "scrap metal" Manding sword and an Austrian saber.
2 closeup of the scrap metal Manding sword and the Manding sword in question
3 closeup of Manding sword and Austrian saber
4 spine thickness of the two Manding swords, the scrap metal one being the thinner
5 Manding sword next to two other "converted" African daggers with European saber blades. Big one is a Shula, small one is some sort of ersatz koumyya relative I guess
6 closeup of all three blades.

Edit: never mind, they all posted out of order. But you get the idea.

The Manding blade isn't quite as refined as the other Euro blades and it doesn't have any patina to it. But it definitely was retipped in a very similar fashion to the Shula and the other dagger. And as Jim said, why would the Manding make the tip in one shape and then grind it into another shape?

25th March 2014, 07:01 PM	#1
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Blade origin of Manding sword? I recently picked up this Manding sword and I'm curious about the origin of the blade. From a distance it looks like an old European saber, but up close it's very roughly finished. The blade shape is odd too, it looks it was reworked to have a pointy tip and and a false edge. If you run your hands down the side of the blade, it feels wavy, as if the thickness of the blade keeps changing. I wonder if it's a locally made approximation of a European saber blade, or if it's a saber that's been heavily worked over with a file and chisel? The blade's 25mm wide and 7mm thick at the hilt. The spine is square and also covered in file marks. Attached Images

27th March 2014, 03:36 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Some great questions here. Most notably, why in the world would a native armourer fabricate a hollow ground blade in European style, only to be dramatically ground down and cut down along with completely changing the tip? Further, why and how would they do that from scrap? The Manding regions expand throughout French West Africa, with those French occupied regions including Mauritania, Mali (French Sudan), French Guinea, Cote d' Ivoire, Burkina Faso, Dahomey and Niger. To the north were French occupied regions of Algeria, later Tunisia and Morocco. I do not find it surprising that with this presence throughout these regions that military sabre blades would become available to native armourers. It should be noted of course that while French blades were typically from French producers they were also widely from Solingen. In the case of this extremely 'worked' blade there is no longer the opportunity for normal identification from markings. It seems worthy to note as well that trade blades of course were heavily brought into North Africa through various points to be traded into Saharan and Sudanese regions, but these were typically broadsword blades, not sabre blades. I would mention again the Tuareg curved versions of the takouba (termed ajuinar) are known in Mali and another I have seen from Burkina Faso had a British curved sabre blade by MOLE. Others have been seen with marked French sabre blades, but as noted, these are not typically reduced down like this one. The distinct resemblance of the Manding sabre to the cylindrical hilt of the Omani 'kattara' (and examples of these with curved blades) as noted do bring thoughts toward a connection. It would seem that any connections or similarities must have been transmitted through networking and of course not by direct contact with Omani merchants or slavers. I have pointed out influences between Zanzibar and as far as Morocco and of course Mali in the open cylindrical hilt of these sabres and the 'Zanzibar' sword and their similarities, but must admit these remain circumstantial. While Omani traders did not move inland, other Arab traders connected did set up bases and networks on the mainland. It is through these networks that I believe any influences must have been diffused. It is interesting that the Maasai sword with cylindrical hilt known as the seme' seems to have been in the direct path and regions of these networks. Attached Images

27th March 2014, 03:50 AM	#9
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	I took some side by side photos to give a little more context. 1 side by side with a "scrap metal" Manding sword and an Austrian saber. 2 closeup of the scrap metal Manding sword and the Manding sword in question 3 closeup of Manding sword and Austrian saber 4 spine thickness of the two Manding swords, the scrap metal one being the thinner 5 Manding sword next to two other "converted" African daggers with European saber blades. Big one is a Shula, small one is some sort of ersatz koumyya relative I guess 6 closeup of all three blades. Edit: never mind, they all posted out of order. But you get the idea. The Manding blade isn't quite as refined as the other Euro blades and it doesn't have any patina to it. But it definitely was retipped in a very similar fashion to the Shula and the other dagger. And as Jim said, why would the Manding make the tip in one shape and then grind it into another shape? Attached Images

25th March 2014, 07:10 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	These short sabres are nearly always native blades in my experience. They are somewhat rough and ready in finish but are actually very good quality blades. It would be very nice to learn more about there manufacture. Are they nomad/semi nomad production? What is the quality of the tools use? Are the anvils stone? and so much more.

25th March 2014, 07:18 PM	#3
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Interesting. I had read that they were usually French or British infantry sabers. But every time I see one go up for auction they seem to have locally made blades. I have another one that has a very crudely made blade that's still covered in scale and hammer marks. Interesting thing about the hilt and scabbard - the bottom of the scabbard is dried out and faded, while the upper scabbard and hilt are dark and shiny. I guess the body oil of the previous owner kept the leather in good condition.

25th March 2014, 08:39 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Actually the blades on these Manding sabres that I have seen often have military sabre blades, typically from French cavalry sabres which of course were prevalent in these regions . These typically came of course from French occupied areas and were often Solingen made, the name Holler on many of them . These blades often became mounted in the Tuareg curved form of the takouba termed the 'aljuinar' (as per data from Lee Jones). I have even seen English blades by MOLE in these. The blade has a cross section with the fuller in a depression termed 'hollow ground', characteristic of these 19th century military swords and not as far as I have known, ever produced in the more basic blade production of native artisans. While this one is heavily ground down so markings etc are gone, this hollow ground fuller is still visible. While native armourers are known to have been remarkably skilled at forging and fashioning quality blades, they did not have the industrial equipment to produce these hollow ground blades. It would of course be hard to say exactly how this guardless hilt sabre form developed but since the Manding were primary factors of the trade routes and entrepots in Timbouctou and others they would have had considerable exposure to incoming influences. Since much of this trade was networked from as far as Zanzibar which was of course the key entrepot of the Omani Sultanate.It has long been my personal opinion that the cylindrical hilt well known with Omani merchants and their 'kattaras' may have travelled on these routes through the African interior, trans-Sahara and into Mali. While the distinct cylindrical type hilts developed in Muscat and in the case of available trade sabre blades became the curved version of these swords, perhaps the Manding version of these came from these, with the instance f using such trade or otherwise acquired European sabre blades. Years ago the compelling connections between the curious baselard like weapon with 'H' shape hilt termed the 'Zanzibar' sword by Demmin (1877) via Burton (1884) and corrected by Buttin (1933) ...and the Moroccan sboula were shown. Clearly these weapons were one in the same and connected via these same trade routes and entrepots. I have personally considered many African edged weapons to be 'reflective' of many outside influences, and becoming the now distinctive forms often regarded as indigenous to their respective regions.

25th March 2014, 08:48 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Yes the larger versions are always made from European sword blade. This example is a shorter lighter version.