Armour?

[Ahriman]

Oi!
As I've written before, I'm an armourer, with quite limited resources in my favourite area. As I'm writing this here, you can guess what's that area...

So, I'd like to ask you to post as much pictures/drawings of armour from outside europe, especially from the middle-east, India, and the moro region.

And one more thing. I made a demigauntlet for a buyer who wanted eastern looks, flexibility, and durability. The result is attached. I'd like to know if it had ever exist, and if so, where? I'd bet 16th century turkish or persian.


Last thing. Is it possible that such thing existed? It's still unfinished, but even then... I bet you can answer me.


Almost forgot: in the end, it'll have open sides with laces + more plates to the back instead of that "aventail". Stomach area will be moved upwards, and a moro-like skirt will be added. Whole thing will be polished.

[fearn]

Hi Ahriman,

Neat armor. As for the practicality, I'd suggest a simple test: get someone to take a stick to you while you wear it (I won't suggest a sword or a baseball bat). While it's neat, I'm not sure I'd like to wear something that leaves spine and solar plexus so exposed. Getting whacked with something non-lethal might be useful, simply to let you know whether it protects what you want it to protect, at a level you're comfortable with.

F

[Ahriman]

Thanks!
Tried out.. with sword... back area is a problem, but I know that already... The plate sections take full blow without padding very-very well, but the mail components would require the padding. BTW, the plates on the BP are 3.5mm thick, the wire is 2.5mm. Solar plexus will be a bit more protected when I move the abdomen plate up.
But would it have been possible historically?

[Mark]

It does look Indo-Persian. With the variety there is in plate-and-mail armor its possible that something looked like this. In my limited experience I haven't seen any with plates of those shapes, though.

[Tim Simmons]

You have covered your nipples and belly but I could stick my lattest mail piercing Telek right into your heart. Tim

[Aqtai]

Nice work there . The arm-guard looks like a distant relative of a Turco-Iranian bazu band. Although I vaguely remember an Indian vambrace with a similar structure from somewhere. The mail and plate cuirass has a similar structure to a 16th century Turco-Iranian Krug, however the shapes of the actual components are different. Islamic oriental mail and plate armours tended to prefer more geometric shapes like circles, rectangles and squares.

Here is a 17th century Turkish vambrace or bazu-band (from the Karlsruher Turkenbeute collection). Most contemporary Iranian and Indian vambraces would have had a similar construction but a different style of decoration. Vambraces of this type were used in the middle-east from the late 15th century to the early 19th century.


This is a 16th century Ottoman krug or korazin from the Royal armouries in Leeds. This type of armour was probably used from the early 16th to the late 17th century in Iran, the Ottoman Empire and Russia. In Iran and India the Krug was superceded by the chahar-ayna cuirass in the late 16th century.


This is another type of mail-and-plate armour, variants of this were used in the Mamluk Sultanate, Ottoman Empire, Iran, India and Russia from the late 14th to late 18th century AD. This particular example is Turkish and is in the Royal armouries in Leeds:


Finally if you haven't got these two books already then I would recommend them. They're a bit old fashioned and occasionally downright out-dated, but they're cheap (especially if you buy them second-hand from abebooks.com) and have lots of pictures, so they are a good starting point:
http://store.yahoo.com/doverpublicat...486407268.html
http://store.yahoo.com/doverpublicat...486418189.html

[rasdan]

Hi Ahriman,

I think the the wire diameter of 2.5mm (12ga if i'm right) is too big and ring diameter also is a bit large. What i see normally in a Moro armour they would use a 14ga wire with a diameter of 5/16" for the suit and 12ga wire with a diameter of perhaps 3/8" for rings connecting the plates. The plates are also a bit thick. I thought 2.5mm thick would be adequate. But, well, this is only my observations, i dont have the experience of making one myself.


Btw, i have a few questions. Do u cut your rings by yourself? What material is the rings? Can u please tell us, how do u make the plates curve? Do u use a stamping machine or a hammer?

Regards,
Rasdan

[Ahriman]

Thanks for the good pictures, especially the krug, and the comments!

I forgot to add a few infos about that cuirass: the photos are more than a year old, while the cuirass was an absolute side project in the last 2 years. I've drawn the patterns for the plates directly onto the steel free-handedly, and I, indeed, made the armpit too vulnerable. I'm currently planning the next version with more krug-ish lines, but with keeping the "musculata" feeling. Oh, and I didn't know anything about the krug back then... And it was my first-ever m&p stuff. Even then, I'd like to finish it with elbow lenght sleeves.

Tim: I know, you're quite right, but back then, I thought that I'd need such a big armpit for mobility. I was wrong. The mentioned sleeves'll help a bit, but won't solve the problem fully. The next one will be better for sure.

It seems to me that the eastern people tended to have quite thin arms - I haven't really seen any bazuband that could fit to my arm. This seems strange because they were fighting and shooting arrows most of their lifetime... Or am I wrong?

[Ahriman]

I use only hammers for platework. I hate machining tools excluding the angle-grinder, the drill, and that huge thing that can rotate metal (I don't know it's english name).
Yes, it's indeed VERY thick. From mild steel, 1.5-2 mm would've been enough, from tempered spring steel, 1.2 mm would've been overkill already. Wire thickness is due to the hungarian demands - be it cheap and durable. Cheapness rules out riveted mail, durability rules out anything under 12ga.. And I'm almost famous for the strenght of my stuff.
Rings are steel and, of course, cold drawn, which makes it better. I coiled and cut them with that huge thing etc, and my angle grinder.
Another pictures, not eastern, but it proves that I use hammers.... It's a half-done musculata with less than 5 hours of work in it, with planning-patterning.

[Aqtai]

That lorica musculata looks pretty good after just 5 hours work, is it bronze?

On the subject of mail, it's my understanding that mail was usually made from iron rather than steel, there were good sound reasons for this apparently. If I remember rightly if struck, a steel ring was more likely to break where as an iron ring would deform, but not break.

I would't worry too much about the armpits being exposed on the krug-style cuirass, AFAIK the krug, like the chahar aina, was meant to be worn over a mail shirt.

I still haven't found the bazubands I mentioned, but I'm sure I've seen one like yours somewhere. Here are a pair of Iranian bazubands circa 1700 from the Royal Armouries:


With regards to what you said about the size of bazubands, I encountered the same thing with a tulwar I recently bought, the hilt was too small for my hand. I can only surmise that the average Turk/Iranian/Indian circa 1400-1800 was smaller than most modern Europeans.

Solid plate bazubands were also used in India, like this example from "The Arts of War, Arms and Armour of the 7th to 19th centuries, The Nasser D. Khalili Collection of Islamic Art, VOL XXI" by David Alexander. These often look a bit bigger.

[Ahriman]

Damn, I forgot. This is the mentioned vambrace.

[Aqtai]

If you are talking about the 5th picture along, the one that looks like this:


I'm sorry to say it is a greave. Oriental greaves strap to the outside of the leg.

If you have a look at the picture of the mannequin wearing the full armour with the krug cuirass, you can just make them out.

Here is photo I took of one at the Royal Armouries museum.


Here is a complete greave and cuisse assembly. It's from that Osprey book on Ottoman Armies.


Here's a 15th century Turkish cuisse as well.


BTW, that's a nice website you found there. There is a partial embossed krug on the first page.

[Ahriman]

Lol, I thought I should beleive the museum... Makes sense as a greave, if I look it that way. But then how's that that even the turkish museum says it's a vambrace???

[Aqtai]

Originally Posted by Ahriman

Lol, I thought I should beleive the museum... Makes sense as a greave, if I look it that way. But then how's that that even the turkish museum says it's a vambrace???

I think for a long time European curators did think they were vambraces, the reason was they were used to European greaves worn on the front of the leg, the idea of one worn on the side was alien to them. From the point of view of the Turks and Iranians it made perfect sense. Warriors who wore armour were cavalry men. The inside of the leg was protected by the horse, only the outside needed armour.

[B.I]

i think you have both hit a long-standing debate, and one that has not entered the forum before (as far as i know).
i'm afraid it has no answer, but the general consensus is that it is a vambrace (and i agree). its all down to opinion, as either corner can offer up a plausable arguement.
mine has always been asthetics, in that as a vambrace its effective and does the job. as a greave, its ill-fitting (at any angle) and looks ugly and out of place.
as i said, its only my opinion. the stibbert museum has them on the legs and i never thought it looked right. armour was used for both cavalry and infantry, so i cant agree on the 'side of the leg showing' theory. also, no good warrior would rely on remaining horsed and leave themselves vulnerable if un-horsed (i guess).
the problem is in the existance of splintered, small plates, and complete plates style of ottoman armour. i figured this was why stibbert mounted his dummies in the way he did as his mail/plate vambraces couldnt be anything but, so he figured that the solid plate guard had to be a grieve.
all speculative and a matter of opinion i'm afraid (but, no reason to stop debating :-)
i hold firm to my theories though (unfortunately, as does everyo ne else).
i must admit, i thought it was only the stibbert that had them mounted on the legs. i think the ones on the met complete armour are different (and dont have the 'hand-shield section). i have only seen images so may be wrong.
no idea where the ones on the 'complete leg' in the osprey book is from. does it have a reference?

[Dom]

Hi
your request was; "to post as much pictures/drawings of armour from outside europe, especially from the middle-east"
this answer doesn't came very fast, but at least not the last may be
a part of my little treasures

à +

Dom

[Titus Pullo]

Nice pictures of armors and the info, you guys! I woder if these guys ever get fungus rot wearing so much and tight armors? I'm sure that would be a huge problem when you come to Southeast Asia. It's wet and hot all year round! They only have two seasons in the tropics...wet and dry season. During the dry season, it gets pretty hot, and it's still very wet and humid than anything Europeans had ever experienced. And during the wet, or the monsoon, season it rains a lot...until the entire forest, cities, and towns are flooded. And not to mention all the biting insects...difficult to scratch if you're wearing armors! [chuckle] The American GI's, who fought in Vietnam, came back and tell the stories of how hot and wet it is, and that they were suffering from severe fungus infection! [laugh!] It was a very difficult to move about because of the amount of water and undergrowth.

And I like to make note on the use of armored elephants, though. Elephants are very difficult animals to control because they are bright and probably are aware of what's going on around them. They can feel stress caused by the environments! In that sense they are very dangerous! They kill more zookeepers than any animals in zoos. Stories of Indian elephants killing their mahouts virulently and grusomely by squshing him in a small basket, or teared off the head, or limbs are not uncommon! The use of elephants as tanks is overly exaggerated. When elephants are angry and in pain they will kill everyone, your troops including, not just the enemies. They are used primarily as psychological weapons because being big animals, they would scare the enemies' troops.