Swords in Art -- what is this?

[DaveA]

My wife is visiting Moscow, Russia and saw this painting. Any idea what this sword is? I want to say the blade looks like a Black Sea Yataghan, but the hilt is wrong.

Your thoughts?

DaveA

[ALEX]

Please see the below link - post 12, image 4.
This is early shamshir-like blade form, later seen on Russian and Caucasian swords. There are several in Hermitage and Topkapi collections.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=hermitage

[DaveA]

The blade in the picture is recurved. I don't see that among the examples in your linked photo.

More info: this painting is exhibited alongside 16th century icons.

[ALEX]

In the link, scroll down to post number 12, 4th image. Similarly shaped recurved blade. The painting is a bit stylized but the curve matches. 16th Century also matches this blade type period.

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by ALEX

In the link, scroll down to post number 12, 4th image. Similarly shaped recurved blade. The painting is a bit stylized but the curve matches. 16th Century also matches this blade type period.

When I refreshed the page the other pictures came up. Fabulous thread! Now I wish I had gone with my wife!

I agree, the sword in picture #4, post 14 could be a match. That sword is very interesting. Is the tip conical, as in a pesh kabz, for piercing chain mail armor?

Dave A

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by DaveA

When I refreshed the page the other pictures came up. Fabulous thread! Now I wish I had gone with my wife!

I agree, the sword in picture #4, post 14 could be a match. That sword is very interesting. Is the tip conical, as in a pesh kabz, for piercing chain mail armor?

Dave A

The earlier ones, around 15th Century, had sharp narrow tips with very shallow recurve. Unlike short Pesh Kabz of 18th-19thC they are not reinforced and not designed for armor piercing (generally, the sword is not well suited for that). Later, after 16thC the recurve got more defined as in above example.
An interesting thread where the early art is matching the early item.

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Please see the below link - post 12, image 4.
This is early shamshir-like blade form, later seen on Russian and Caucasian swords. There are several in Hermitage and Topkapi collections.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=hermitage

These weapons are from the region we call the Middle East and are not nearly as old as the one depicted in the painting.

[motan]

Hi David,
I am not an expert on swords at all, and I am sure that other forum members could spin fantastic theories about this sword.
However, this is a very old painting, probably early renaissance, depicting the beheading of a saint, who was probably martyred in the event. Realism is not very strong in paintings from that period. I can not reconize the country of origin the painting or the specific saint, but most of those events happend even much earlier and in places far away.
So there is a good probability that the sword is not of a real type known to the painter, but was born out of his imagination intended to look exotic ..

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by motan

Hi David,
I am not an expert on swords at all, and I am sure that other forum members could spin fantastic theories about this sword.
However, this is a very old painting, probably early renaissance, depicting the beheading of a saint, who was probably martyred in the event. Realism is not very strong in paintings from that period. I can not reconize the country of origin the painting or the specific saint, but most of those events happend even much earlier and in places far away.
So there is a good probability that the sword is not of a real type known to the painter, but was born out of his imagination intended to look exotic ..

Good point, and we should expect artistic license as well as inaccurate rendering. Nevertheless, a Russian artist in the 1500's depicted a recurved blade. I wasn't aware the form was that old.

[colin henshaw]

Here is a fanciful painting by the sixteenth century Elizabethan artist John White of a "Pictish Woman" (European Iron Age). She is wearing some sort of Eastern European scimitar type sword...

John White accompanied Sir Walter Raleigh's early attempts to colonise North America and produced some of the first depictions of Native Americans.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Here is a fanciful painting by the sixteenth century Elizabethan artist John White of a "Pictish Woman" (European Iron Age). She is wearing some sort of Eastern European scimitar type sword...

John White accompanied Sir Walter Raleigh's early attempts to colonise North America and produced some of the first depictions of Native Americans.

I always suspected that the Kilij originated in the Scottish Highlands... some 2000 years ago...

Now I have the irrefutable proof that my suspicion was well founded!


PS: Now, even the origins of the Ottoman crescent can be traced back to the old Picts (just have a look a the lady's pendant).