Oceanic Club-Opinions?

dolly-dagger · 27th June 2013, 03:12 AM

Hi Folks,
I have enjoyed your site for several years,and now a new member.Thank you for letting me on board.Great Stuff!!! I am starting my first post with a very short pole club that I have always assumed to be of Fijian origins.The club is 25 inches,and made of a very dense black Pacific hardwood,which also appears to be stone/shell carved.The handle is carved in a much different form than the usual.I have a modest collection of tribal art,and this differs in the style than the 60+ oceanic clubs in my group.I have seen some Fijian clubs with Tongan,as well as Maori motifs/designs,and wanted to get any opinions that one may have? Thank you in advance.Michael

Robert · 27th June 2013, 05:42 AM

Hello Dolly-Dagger and welcome to the forum. While I know absolutely nothing that can help you on your club we do have some very knowledgeable member who should be along shortly to help answer your questions. I am however looking forward to more photos of your modest 60 plus collection of 60 plus oceanic clubs.

Again, Welcome aboard.

Best,
Robert

VANDOO · 27th June 2013, 07:40 AM

WELCOME TO THE FORUM

WE ARE ALWAYS PLEASED TO SEE ITEMS FROM OTHER COLLECTORS AND TO GAIN AND SHARE KNOWLEGE. THE CLUB YOU SHOW IS A VERY NICE ONE WITH A INTERESTING CARVED DESIGN SIMULAR TO WHAT I HAVE SEEN FROM FIJI BUT PERHAPS WITH TONGAN INFLUENCE DUE TO THE VARIATIONS IN PATTERN.
TWO FORMS OF FIJI POLE CLUB FIT THIS FORM THE BOWAI WHICH IS GENERALLY LONGER AND THE GADI. I PERSONALLY WOULD CLASSIFY THIS AS THE GADI FORM DUE TO THE SIZE AND FLARED STRIKING END.
SEE FIJIAN WEAPONS & WARFARE BY FERGUS CLUNIE PLATES 11 AND 10, TEXT ON PAGE 56. THE OTHER POSSIBILITY IS ON PLATE 18 WITH TEXT ON PAGE 58.
THE BOOK LISTED ABOVE IS THE BEST I KNOW OF FOR REFRENCE ON FIJI WEAPONS SO IF YOU DON'T HAVE A COPY IT WOULD BE A GOOD REFRENCE TO GET. A VERY NICE CLUB THANKS FOR SHAREING.

Tim Simmons · 27th June 2013, 11:14 AM

Very nice indeed. I would say 60+ like this is far from a modest collection!!!!

I am adding illustrations from "Fijian Weapons & Warfare, Fergus Clunie"
You can see a great variety of handle decoration and I am sure this is not the definitive list. A pole club is a basic design and world wide. There is the possibility that it could come from other Polynesian Islands perhaps ruling out Samoa. As I say very nice and I look forward to seeing and discussing more. I have a staff/club coming in the next week and will and here even though it is Melanesian.

trenchwarfare · 27th June 2013, 04:08 PM

Welcome aboard Dolly. Show us more.

Sajen · 27th June 2013, 05:50 PM

Welcome Michael! Nice club.

Regards,

Detlef

colin henshaw · 30th June 2013, 10:18 AM

Hello dolly-dagger,

A fine selection of Fijian clubs, they seem to be very sought after and popular with collectors. Do post more examples from your collection.

Presumably Fijians also started producing these clubs to order/resale after the arrival of Europeans - do you have any views on this - how can one spot "tourist" examples ?

Regarding the small club you posted - I so no reason to doubt is was used for "wife-beating" or other similar domestic purposes, but could also be used as a weapon against tribal enemies in case of need, depending on the circumstances.... I have also seen Fijian clubs made in very small dimensions for children (Pitt Rivers Museum).

Tim Simmons · 2nd July 2013, 09:06 PM

My new item has arrived and as I said, I add it here.

Before I do this a few more thoughts about the most elegant and beautiful lustrous club Dolly started the thread with. It could be that fine light weapons like this, could be more of a status, prestige rank item. Made for display. Very often the higher up the food chain a person is weapons often morph into non functioning versions. Rommel had a baton as did many of military big wigs.

All this brings me to my new item. I thought it might be a club as the sellers pictures were rather poor and they gave the impression that it was longer and heavier. However I am very pleased with what turned up. It is exquisite and probably the best thing I have in my collection. It is a prestige staff being far to light to use as a club. Also not at all comfortable in the hand as a walking stick. Held in the middle section is most comfortable with the very slight convex curve to the staff towards the body. When seen next to what are clearly club weapons, you can see that at 93cm long it is too light for fighting. The end shows no contact with the ground as with the clubs. One of the aspect I like most of all is the very artful gaps in the carving of the figures making the finial. One could see some symbolism here but I hesitate to take that any further. Also I find pleasure in the way the stylised frigate birds are so easily recognised. I will also add {as a reply} three pages from " Michael Hamson, Oceanic Art" In the text reference is made to a Harry Beran who after a net search I found is very big in the "Tribal Art" world. He refers to these as staff which I feel they must be showing no signs of ever being used as walking sticks. With a little bit of luck this thread might continue and bring more unusual Oceanic material to the surface.

Tim Simmons · 2nd July 2013, 09:09 PM

Text for "Art Of The Massim & Collingwood Bay, Micheal Hamson, Los Angeles "

Tim Simmons · 28th February 2016, 03:22 PM

Took a long time but got there in the end. Went to bed left what I thought was a rather low bid, woke up in the morning and bingo it is mine

. 112cm long and a piece of marine? ivory? or shell inlay to boot. Just got to get here and pay quite a bit of TAX coming from outside the EU.

Sajen · 28th February 2016, 05:03 PM

Great club Tim!

Congrats!

colin henshaw · 29th February 2016, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Took a long time but got there in the end. Went to bed left what I thought was a rather low bid, woke up in the morning and bingo it is mine

. 112cm long and a piece of marine? ivory? or shell inlay to boot. Just got to get here and pay quite a bit of TAX coming from outside the EU.

Looks a good old club, nice with the ivory inlay. Well done !

27th June 2013, 03:12 AM	#1
dolly-dagger Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 4	Oceanic Club-Opinions? Hi Folks, I have enjoyed your site for several years,and now a new member.Thank you for letting me on board.Great Stuff!!! I am starting my first post with a very short pole club that I have always assumed to be of Fijian origins.The club is 25 inches,and made of a very dense black Pacific hardwood,which also appears to be stone/shell carved.The handle is carved in a much different form than the usual.I have a modest collection of tribal art,and this differs in the style than the 60+ oceanic clubs in my group.I have seen some Fijian clubs with Tongan,as well as Maori motifs/designs,and wanted to get any opinions that one may have? Thank you in advance.Michael Attached Images

27th June 2013, 11:14 AM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Very nice indeed. I would say 60+ like this is far from a modest collection!!!! I am adding illustrations from "Fijian Weapons & Warfare, Fergus Clunie" You can see a great variety of handle decoration and I am sure this is not the definitive list. A pole club is a basic design and world wide. There is the possibility that it could come from other Polynesian Islands perhaps ruling out Samoa. As I say very nice and I look forward to seeing and discussing more. I have a staff/club coming in the next week and will and here even though it is Melanesian. Attached Images

2nd July 2013, 09:06 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	My new item has arrived and as I said, I add it here. Before I do this a few more thoughts about the most elegant and beautiful lustrous club Dolly started the thread with. It could be that fine light weapons like this, could be more of a status, prestige rank item. Made for display. Very often the higher up the food chain a person is weapons often morph into non functioning versions. Rommel had a baton as did many of military big wigs. All this brings me to my new item. I thought it might be a club as the sellers pictures were rather poor and they gave the impression that it was longer and heavier. However I am very pleased with what turned up. It is exquisite and probably the best thing I have in my collection. It is a prestige staff being far to light to use as a club. Also not at all comfortable in the hand as a walking stick. Held in the middle section is most comfortable with the very slight convex curve to the staff towards the body. When seen next to what are clearly club weapons, you can see that at 93cm long it is too light for fighting. The end shows no contact with the ground as with the clubs. One of the aspect I like most of all is the very artful gaps in the carving of the figures making the finial. One could see some symbolism here but I hesitate to take that any further. Also I find pleasure in the way the stylised frigate birds are so easily recognised. I will also add {as a reply} three pages from " Michael Hamson, Oceanic Art" In the text reference is made to a Harry Beran who after a net search I found is very big in the "Tribal Art" world. He refers to these as staff which I feel they must be showing no signs of ever being used as walking sticks. With a little bit of luck this thread might continue and bring more unusual Oceanic material to the surface. Attached Images

2nd July 2013, 09:09 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Text for "Art Of The Massim & Collingwood Bay, Micheal Hamson, Los Angeles " Attached Images

28th February 2016, 03:22 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Took a long time but got there in the end. Went to bed left what I thought was a rather low bid, woke up in the morning and bingo it is mine . 112cm long and a piece of marine? ivory? or shell inlay to boot. Just got to get here and pay quite a bit of TAX coming from outside the EU. Attached Images

27th June 2013, 05:42 AM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Dolly-Dagger and welcome to the forum. While I know absolutely nothing that can help you on your club we do have some very knowledgeable member who should be along shortly to help answer your questions. I am however looking forward to more photos of your modest 60 plus collection of 60 plus oceanic clubs. Again, Welcome aboard. Best, Robert

27th June 2013, 07:40 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WELCOME TO THE FORUM WE ARE ALWAYS PLEASED TO SEE ITEMS FROM OTHER COLLECTORS AND TO GAIN AND SHARE KNOWLEGE. THE CLUB YOU SHOW IS A VERY NICE ONE WITH A INTERESTING CARVED DESIGN SIMULAR TO WHAT I HAVE SEEN FROM FIJI BUT PERHAPS WITH TONGAN INFLUENCE DUE TO THE VARIATIONS IN PATTERN. TWO FORMS OF FIJI POLE CLUB FIT THIS FORM THE BOWAI WHICH IS GENERALLY LONGER AND THE GADI. I PERSONALLY WOULD CLASSIFY THIS AS THE GADI FORM DUE TO THE SIZE AND FLARED STRIKING END. SEE FIJIAN WEAPONS & WARFARE BY FERGUS CLUNIE PLATES 11 AND 10, TEXT ON PAGE 56. THE OTHER POSSIBILITY IS ON PLATE 18 WITH TEXT ON PAGE 58. THE BOOK LISTED ABOVE IS THE BEST I KNOW OF FOR REFRENCE ON FIJI WEAPONS SO IF YOU DON'T HAVE A COPY IT WOULD BE A GOOD REFRENCE TO GET. A VERY NICE CLUB THANKS FOR SHAREING.

27th June 2013, 04:08 PM	#5
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Welcome aboard Dolly. Show us more.

27th June 2013, 05:50 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Welcome Michael! Nice club. Regards, Detlef

30th June 2013, 10:18 AM	#7
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hello dolly-dagger, A fine selection of Fijian clubs, they seem to be very sought after and popular with collectors. Do post more examples from your collection. Presumably Fijians also started producing these clubs to order/resale after the arrival of Europeans - do you have any views on this - how can one spot "tourist" examples ? Regarding the small club you posted - I so no reason to doubt is was used for "wife-beating" or other similar domestic purposes, but could also be used as a weapon against tribal enemies in case of need, depending on the circumstances.... I have also seen Fijian clubs made in very small dimensions for children (Pitt Rivers Museum).

28th February 2016, 05:03 PM	#11
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Great club Tim! Congrats!