Chinese Ge Dagger Axe

kronckew · 5th June 2019, 03:23 PM

Just aquired this from an auction here in the UK, It's a chinese warring states bronze age pole arm weapon. Comes from an old collection estate sale, so with luck not a recent copy.

Hopefully will clean up the verdegris w/o destroying the patina & I'll find it in good enough condition to mount it on a pole as it would have been. Don't recall seeing many of these here, if any. they were the pimary chinese weapon for a few centuries. Later versions incorporated a spear point to the pole and eventually to the Ge portion as one unit.

Battara · 8th June 2019, 04:54 AM

Congratulations!

There are so many fakes now being made in China, I have to admit I wouldn't real from reproduction/fake. (of course not my area of research collecting.......)

kronckew · 8th June 2019, 12:16 PM

It's always possible this is a new repro, it's illegal to ship a real one out of china. I'd never buy it from e-pray from china, either they start at more than I can pay, or so low they must be fake. I'm especially leery of the pretty carved jade ones i've seen there with sockets instead of tangs.

Mine is coming from a reputable UK dealer who was liquidating a collection of asian artefacts from a deceased collector. That too could be a fake statement, but less likely as their rep is on the line and I know where they live. Thankfully no reserve and no one else bid. Don't think the punters knew what the heck it was. Got it for less than £50, so even if it's a fake, I'm not out much. It's cost me less than a fake would

.

fernando · 9th June 2019, 12:51 PM

Wayne, no hopes; you know very well that, the chances to get the real thing are nihil. And in such case, their sales value, whatever they ask out there, ranging from 50 to 50 000 bucks, is no authenticity reference. It might sound anecdotal but, if you the rub off the verdigris, aren't you destroying lots of the fakers work ? ... sorry the cynicism

.

Speaking of their rarity, they have a vast collection of these at the Royal Ontario Museum ... hopefully authentic ones.
(My pictures ... lousy as can be),

.

kronckew · 9th June 2019, 04:20 PM

I know the chances are slim w/o a full metal composition analysis and some objective method of dating, which I can't afford,but I can dream...They said the coelacanths were extinct millions of years ago, but you can still catch one occasionally! If I knew it was a real antique from the warring states era I wouldn't brush it off.

They literally made millions of them then tho, and bronze survives well, so I can fool myself into thinking a local UK Officer from the Boxer siege of Peking in 1900 brought it home as a souvenir.

The pics are great, thanks!

Philip · 1st July 2019, 12:53 AM

As we all know, the marketplace for "archaic", "historic" etc bronze objects is awash with fakes -- just got through reading an old thread on lantakas on this venue, E-Prey is loaded with dodgy stuff from China, and check out the shelves full of Luristan weapons in galleries from Grey's Mews to NY' s Lower East Side...

Provenance, if reliable, helps a lot when making that decision to bid or buy. Yet in the long run, nothing beats empirical expertise in the field, and the expert technical analysis, when push comes to shove. Ontario's ROM has a landmark collection of Chinese bronzes assembled early in the last century if not before, but seeing something behind glass can be only so helpful when considering an item with a hefty market-rate price tag.

A decade a dealer colleague asked me for an opinion on an archaic Chinese bronze helmet he got from a New England estate, it was part of a late professor's collection, largely assembled during his residency in China and elsewhere after WW II. I admit to not being a bronze expert, but I agreed to examine it anyway. The form looked good, along with patina, gauge of metal, deco technique, yadda yadda. I was ready to be convinced... But knowing my limits, I got the owner's permisson to send it to a friend who specialized in antiquities. He performed a simple test to an area of patina and bingo! he found it to be as kosher as a ham sandwich.

So all my opining based on visual comparisons with published examples, and analogies applied to the surfaces of stuff I've seen from 2 feet away in museums, was all for naught.

What about the provenance? Obtained in the late '40s ir early 50s, decades before the rise of the Chinese knockoff industry, collected by an academician no less? I knew that the Chinese were reproducing archaic bronze and writing about it as far back as the Ming Dynasty, but some inquiries with the art crowd taught me that there was still some artisanal production of quality copies even into the turbulent 20th cent. and that some of this was created for presentation or gifting purposes.

This example is wandering far afield from a simple dagger-ax but I thought I'd put it out there to give an idea of the scope of the issue.

Oh, am pleased to report that my colleague got his money back out of that helmet!

5th June 2019, 03:23 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	Chinese Ge Dagger Axe Just aquired this from an auction here in the UK, It's a chinese warring states bronze age pole arm weapon. Comes from an old collection estate sale, so with luck not a recent copy. Hopefully will clean up the verdegris w/o destroying the patina & I'll find it in good enough condition to mount it on a pole as it would have been. Don't recall seeing many of these here, if any. they were the pimary chinese weapon for a few centuries. Later versions incorporated a spear point to the pole and eventually to the Ge portion as one unit. Attached Images

9th June 2019, 12:51 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Sorry the skepticism ... Wayne, no hopes; you know very well that, the chances to get the real thing are nihil. And in such case, their sales value, whatever they ask out there, ranging from 50 to 50 000 bucks, is no authenticity reference. It might sound anecdotal but, if you the rub off the verdigris, aren't you destroying lots of the fakers work ? ... sorry the cynicism . Speaking of their rarity, they have a vast collection of these at the Royal Ontario Museum ... hopefully authentic ones. (My pictures ... lousy as can be), . Attached Images

9th June 2019, 04:20 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	I know the chances are slim w/o a full metal composition analysis and some objective method of dating, which I can't afford,but I can dream...They said the coelacanths were extinct millions of years ago, but you can still catch one occasionally! If I knew it was a real antique from the warring states era I wouldn't brush it off. They literally made millions of them then tho, and bronze survives well, so I can fool myself into thinking a local UK Officer from the Boxer siege of Peking in 1900 brought it home as a souvenir. The pics are great, thanks! Last edited by kronckew; 9th June 2019 at 04:30 PM.

8th June 2019, 04:54 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Congratulations! There are so many fakes now being made in China, I have to admit I wouldn't real from reproduction/fake. (of course not my area of research collecting.......)

8th June 2019, 12:16 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	It's always possible this is a new repro, it's illegal to ship a real one out of china. I'd never buy it from e-pray from china, either they start at more than I can pay, or so low they must be fake. I'm especially leery of the pretty carved jade ones i've seen there with sockets instead of tangs. Mine is coming from a reputable UK dealer who was liquidating a collection of asian artefacts from a deceased collector. That too could be a fake statement, but less likely as their rep is on the line and I know where they live. Thankfully no reserve and no one else bid. Don't think the punters knew what the heck it was. Got it for less than £50, so even if it's a fake, I'm not out much. It's cost me less than a fake would .

1st July 2019, 12:53 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	As we all know, the marketplace for "archaic", "historic" etc bronze objects is awash with fakes -- just got through reading an old thread on lantakas on this venue, E-Prey is loaded with dodgy stuff from China, and check out the shelves full of Luristan weapons in galleries from Grey's Mews to NY' s Lower East Side... Provenance, if reliable, helps a lot when making that decision to bid or buy. Yet in the long run, nothing beats empirical expertise in the field, and the expert technical analysis, when push comes to shove. Ontario's ROM has a landmark collection of Chinese bronzes assembled early in the last century if not before, but seeing something behind glass can be only so helpful when considering an item with a hefty market-rate price tag. A decade a dealer colleague asked me for an opinion on an archaic Chinese bronze helmet he got from a New England estate, it was part of a late professor's collection, largely assembled during his residency in China and elsewhere after WW II. I admit to not being a bronze expert, but I agreed to examine it anyway. The form looked good, along with patina, gauge of metal, deco technique, yadda yadda. I was ready to be convinced... But knowing my limits, I got the owner's permisson to send it to a friend who specialized in antiquities. He performed a simple test to an area of patina and bingo! he found it to be as kosher as a ham sandwich. So all my opining based on visual comparisons with published examples, and analogies applied to the surfaces of stuff I've seen from 2 feet away in museums, was all for naught. What about the provenance? Obtained in the late '40s ir early 50s, decades before the rise of the Chinese knockoff industry, collected by an academician no less? I knew that the Chinese were reproducing archaic bronze and writing about it as far back as the Ming Dynasty, but some inquiries with the art crowd taught me that there was still some artisanal production of quality copies even into the turbulent 20th cent. and that some of this was created for presentation or gifting purposes. This example is wandering far afield from a simple dagger-ax but I thought I'd put it out there to give an idea of the scope of the issue. Oh, am pleased to report that my colleague got his money back out of that helmet!