African non-weapon, origin ideas....

katana · 31st October 2010, 09:09 PM

Hi,
just bought a very large mortar and pestle.(I want to display some of my collection with some contempory items to give some 'balance'.)

The pestle is heavy ...and would make a lethal two-handed club. Although a 'non-weapon'......unless you have an argument whilst preparing food

....the wood is identical to that used in South African knobkerries. Both the mortar and pestle are hand worked, probably with an adze. I'm trying to ID origins .....with relation to the wood used......would South Africa be a likely source, or is this specie of wood more wide-spread ?

If the wood is more widespread ..then the IDing of knobkerries with the two tone colouration, often attributed to Zulu, are questionable.

All other comments etc, as always, are appreciated, thank you

Regards David

asomotif · 31st October 2010, 09:39 PM

Hello David,

The mortar would make a heavy combat helmet.
Always handy when you get into conflict about how many peanuts should be used for peanutbutter

I saw the two toned wood also on Zanzibar about ten years ago and learned that most woodcarvings offered there where made in the Mombasa region.
But I can imagine that there are several kinds of two toned wood to be found in Africa. Although as far as I knowmostly in south and/or east Africa.

. I have a mortar from Gambia and that one is much more narrow and longer. So maybe there are certain models that can be placed in a region. Maybe someone who really knows the culture there can say something about the shape of the mortar.

Ron Anderson · 1st November 2010, 01:10 AM

Hi David

I think asomotif is right in that there is more than one kind of two toned wood in the region.

The wood I know for Southern African clubs is red or pink ivory, which grows north of Zululand in Transvaal. It was not common and apparently only used by the royal family in Zululand (others used it at the pain of death if discovered, if the stories are true). This wood is duo-toned, but red and black in tone, beautiful, hard, and relatively rare.

This wood may have been used more commonly by groups to the north, transvaal and Limpopo region, or Mozambique. So, Tsonga/Shangaan/ Pedi Northern Sotho perhaps, Venda and others.

Then there is two-toned teak which is used in more modern clubs. This is more red and beige/white duo-toned (as in your mortar and pestle). This is probably not that rare and is probably widely available throughout the region.

I would guess your items are made of this teak.

In short, I can't identify the region your articles come from but Southern or Eastern Africa is a safe bet. My guess is this is from somewhere more remote, because of the way it is carved. So more likely out of South Africa proper, where not many people still use mortar and pestle, and certainly not many would still be handcarving them with adzes.

More likely mozambique, zimbabwe or elsewhere.

In short, I'm not of much help on this. Sorry.

Quite nice items though.

Not for tourists.

katana · 1st November 2010, 05:40 PM

Thank you both, Asomotif and Ron, for your informative posts

.....its appreciated.

It would be very educational to have various wood species identified, in the case of wooden shields, spear shafts and clubs, it would greatly aid their identification and perhaps, origins.

Researching, for instance, the wood used in African spear shafts has yielded very little. The Assegia tree (Curtisia dentata) for some Zulu spear shafts, bamboo (OK not really wood...a grass specie) , rosewood,ebony and teak, but I have some old spears that I can't identify the wood used, but am certain that it is none of these. We also have the situation where there are different species of ebony etc which may be specific to a certain region (climate, soil etc), which could also help to ID weapons origins.

It would be great to see input/a list of known woods used, in relation to the weapons that have positive ID's, so that a reference is produced.

Blade styles, spearhead types and club designs can 'travel' vast distances....but due to climatic/geographical changes ....the wood used could be entirely different.

All the best
David

31st October 2010, 09:09 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	African non-weapon, origin ideas.... Hi, just bought a very large mortar and pestle.(I want to display some of my collection with some contempory items to give some 'balance'.) The pestle is heavy ...and would make a lethal two-handed club. Although a 'non-weapon'......unless you have an argument whilst preparing food ....the wood is identical to that used in South African knobkerries. Both the mortar and pestle are hand worked, probably with an adze. I'm trying to ID origins .....with relation to the wood used......would South Africa be a likely source, or is this specie of wood more wide-spread ? If the wood is more widespread ..then the IDing of knobkerries with the two tone colouration, often attributed to Zulu, are questionable. All other comments etc, as always, are appreciated, thank you Regards David Attached Images

31st October 2010, 09:39 PM	#2
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Hello David, The mortar would make a heavy combat helmet. Always handy when you get into conflict about how many peanuts should be used for peanutbutter I saw the two toned wood also on Zanzibar about ten years ago and learned that most woodcarvings offered there where made in the Mombasa region. But I can imagine that there are several kinds of two toned wood to be found in Africa. Although as far as I knowmostly in south and/or east Africa. . I have a mortar from Gambia and that one is much more narrow and longer. So maybe there are certain models that can be placed in a region. Maybe someone who really knows the culture there can say something about the shape of the mortar.

1st November 2010, 01:10 AM	#3
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi David I think asomotif is right in that there is more than one kind of two toned wood in the region. The wood I know for Southern African clubs is red or pink ivory, which grows north of Zululand in Transvaal. It was not common and apparently only used by the royal family in Zululand (others used it at the pain of death if discovered, if the stories are true). This wood is duo-toned, but red and black in tone, beautiful, hard, and relatively rare. This wood may have been used more commonly by groups to the north, transvaal and Limpopo region, or Mozambique. So, Tsonga/Shangaan/ Pedi Northern Sotho perhaps, Venda and others. Then there is two-toned teak which is used in more modern clubs. This is more red and beige/white duo-toned (as in your mortar and pestle). This is probably not that rare and is probably widely available throughout the region. I would guess your items are made of this teak. In short, I can't identify the region your articles come from but Southern or Eastern Africa is a safe bet. My guess is this is from somewhere more remote, because of the way it is carved. So more likely out of South Africa proper, where not many people still use mortar and pestle, and certainly not many would still be handcarving them with adzes. More likely mozambique, zimbabwe or elsewhere. In short, I'm not of much help on this. Sorry. Quite nice items though. Not for tourists.

1st November 2010, 05:40 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thank you both, Asomotif and Ron, for your informative posts .....its appreciated. It would be very educational to have various wood species identified, in the case of wooden shields, spear shafts and clubs, it would greatly aid their identification and perhaps, origins. Researching, for instance, the wood used in African spear shafts has yielded very little. The Assegia tree (Curtisia dentata) for some Zulu spear shafts, bamboo (OK not really wood...a grass specie) , rosewood,ebony and teak, but I have some old spears that I can't identify the wood used, but am certain that it is none of these. We also have the situation where there are different species of ebony etc which may be specific to a certain region (climate, soil etc), which could also help to ID weapons origins. It would be great to see input/a list of known woods used, in relation to the weapons that have positive ID's, so that a reference is produced. Blade styles, spearhead types and club designs can 'travel' vast distances....but due to climatic/geographical changes ....the wood used could be entirely different. All the best David