interesting sawfish sword

IainN · 6th June 2006, 06:13 PM

This ended a few days ago on Ebay.

#6632788597

I got outbid, but it really is a fascinating item I thought others might enjoy seeing.

Rick · 6th June 2006, 06:18 PM

Here is a link containing yet another link pertaining to these items .

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=sawfish

IainN · 6th June 2006, 07:17 PM

Thanks for the link Rick. I mostly noticed this particular example because I'd never seen a hilt configuration like this on a sawfish sword. Of course I have absolutely no idea if it is an old piece (what ever that means

) as the seller indicated, or a tourist curio. But given the general 'look' it doesn't seem "touristy" to me.

katana · 6th June 2006, 08:20 PM

The hilt and guard does look fairly recent, very little wear or patina on the handle. The saw fish 'bill' does look like it has some age. So possibly a re-hilted piece or a more recent 'marriage' of a sword bill with a hilt.

I too think its quite interesting Iain, I have never seen one mounted in this way or one so large.

Rick · 6th June 2006, 08:38 PM

It reminds me a little of Sailor Art because of the neatly carved scrolls ; these pieces can be hard to tie down though .

Tim Simmons · 6th June 2006, 08:42 PM

Ah! A subject close to my heart. I think it is safe to say that this, fine as it is, is either made for the tourist trade or the handle was fashioned by an owner foreign to where the bill can from. The reddish wood of the guard does look like some timber from around PNG, I can post other examples, and not old. The pale wood must be of the same age and looks really quite recent, a couple of decades? The swirl on the quillions does have a slight Oceanic feel and is quite pleasing, I am not so keen on the handle. I think this is a very fine tourist piece. Much quality tourist work, some now antique is worthy of artistic consideration.

fearn · 7th June 2006, 03:42 AM

Hi Tim,

Here we go again! (see the other sawfish link).

I'm not sure about the age. I'm leaning towards more recent, because I'm not seeing a lot of patina on the handle or the guard.

design: those scrolls on the guard are definitely European style, as is the pommel. I don't think this is made to any indigenous PNG designs, although it could have been made in PNG for tourists. With those scrolls, it was pretty definitely made with steel tools, not bone or stone.

Materials: if the seller is right, I would guess it was made in the US, with a lesser alternate being England (or somewhere else where they could get their hands on walnut, bamboo, and oak, or whatever the pommel is). I'd also note that unworked sawfish bills turn up regularly on eBay, so it's pretty easy to get the materials to make this creation.

My diagnosis is that it's another "sailor-made" (not a derogatory term) or hobbyist made piece, of fairly recent vintage (last 50 years). I've seen some very similar swordfish bill swords sold on eBay, and they were made in New England or maritime Canada (don't remember at the moment).

As with the other sawfish bill, we're missing a lot of clues that would let us give it a provenance. Whoever made it had access to 1) a sawfish bill (bought or caught), 2) woodworking tools, 3) some dark wood and some light wood, and 4) some bamboo (assuming that's what the grip is). That doesn't eliminate much of the world, unfortunately.

My 0.02 cents,

F

Tim Simmons · 7th June 2006, 07:59 AM

Hi Fearn,

I am in total agreement with you on this one

. As for the one I post here some time ago. When compered to these fancifully examples, under magnified inspection, the fact that the string around the pommel is hand rolled {the correct weavers term is cordage} though it does not appear to have a function but other bits might be missing? information from the previous thread, also knowing the reputable source. I am happy in the believe that it is the real deal.

not2sharp · 7th June 2006, 11:40 AM

A few years back (~2000) I was in Valparaiso Chile and there were several street vendors along the beach selling these things to tourist for a few dollars a copy. IIRC prices ranged around $5-$10 each. The blades were made from either swordfish or sawfish bills.

n2s

Tim Simmons · 7th June 2006, 02:17 PM

n2s,

That is very interesting. Mine is old and from different waters. What would the tourists do about cites Prohibitions? Did they have handles?

IainN · 7th June 2006, 03:02 PM

Thanks for the info n2s. Where they in this exact form? If so, then that's extremely useful info. I like these pieces at art objects, but it's good to get an idea of what they sell for in their native market.

Fearn, I agree with most of your assessment, but just to be argumentative...

Your point about metal tools, wouldn't metal tools be a possibility post-contact, which, theoretically, could still place the item, again theoretically and ignoring all other factors such as the odd form, at 100 years or more?

I did turn up one 'real' example which Tim might find interesting if he hasn't seen it already. Not Polynesian, but rather African and collected in 1946.
http://anthro.amnh.org/images/full/901/901_7905.jpg

not2sharp · 7th June 2006, 03:26 PM

Where they in this exact form?

They were in a variety of forms, in crude imitation of European styles. There was at least one cart load on the tourist pier and another along the beach front a couple of blocks down. I recall several crusader cross hilts, and a cutlass, but there were more. Unfortunately, I was there on business and these things looked too big and too fragile to carry back to the states.

n2s

Tim Simmons · 7th June 2006, 03:30 PM

That is a great picture. This is a little of a divergence, I was reading about South Seas artifacts, one source said that in places natives had forges set up by 1840-50s. I will find the exact information latter. The forges were not everywhere but metal for tools was slowly becoming more available and traded.

IainN · 7th June 2006, 04:28 PM

Thanks n2s.

Doing a little more surfing I came up with this entry from the Australian Museums Online site:

Quote:

Picture -- no image available --
Title
Object Catagory Artefact
Object Type Ceremonial Item - Sacred item
Creator Iatmul (language)
Description 18 inches long and damaged at the tip, and has in addition a 7 inch handle. / Sawfish. These are used ceremonially in a very long ceremony. It has apparently been coated with a black substance. See also 2997.
Key Search Ceremonial Item / Sacred item / Iatmul (language)
Associated Places Papua New Guinea / East Sepik
Date JUN 1953
Item ID 2996
References
Institute University of Queensland: Anthropology Museum

A little googling didn't turn up any "very long" ceremonies that noted sawfish bills but it is certainly a clue as to use at least in Papua New Guinea.

fearn · 7th June 2006, 05:20 PM

Hi Tim,

You may well be right about the authenticity of the first sawfish bill.

As for this one, it's good to have n2s's information about the sawfish bills in Valparaiso. It makes a fair amount of sense. Given the CITES rules (all sawfish are, I believe, listed species), I don't think I'd try to bring one back to the US.

As for steel tools in Oceania, when they came in depends on where you are. Stone tools are still (or were very recently) used one one or two small islands (google on tepuke for an example of canoe building), while the Hawaiians were reshaping iron from nails and bolts very early on. They got the metal through trading with sailors and scavenging wrecks, and taught themselves the rest.

Basically, I would guess that a piece could have been made with stone tools before ~1850 in Polynesia or Micronesia (depending on contact date), before 1900 in most of oceanic Melanesia, and before ~1950 in highland PNG (remember that many of the last were contacted until the 1930s or later). In general, steel tools make finer and more complex wood work possible. For instance, the scrolls on the current piece would be very difficult to chip out with a bone chisel.

F

Tim Simmons · 7th June 2006, 05:48 PM

Whizzo!!!

Extract from- A.Meyer - Oceanic Art - Konemann. Great book and cheap as these things go-

Indigenous metalwork in New Guinea dates back to the 16th century, when Moluccan Muslim blacksmiths imported the know-how and raw materials, in the form of bronze, silver and iron bars, to the Triton Bay area of the Vogelkop Peninsula. Silver bracelets and iron spearheads were forged by Papuans blacksmiths using the vertical, twin piston type of bellows.
Don Diego de Prado y Tovar attests to this in his captains log of 13 December 1606. Biak Island and Doreh village in Cenderawasih Bay are mentioned in the late 18th and early 19th-century texts as major iron working centers. Dumont d'Urville saw a forge 1827, using the same type of bellows seen 200 years earlier by Don Diego. Small quantities of metal found there way to many parts of New Guinea in pre contact times, either through trade with western tribes and Asian merchants, or acquired by chance from shipwrecks. There were trade links between Micronesia and main land Asia. Spanish galleons bringing gold and silver from the colonies to Manila stopped off in the Marianas from the mid-16th century, and some must have been shipwrecked on there westward route from South America through the northern edge of central Polynesia.
The difference between metal and stone is that the sharp edge of a metal blade lasts longer and cuts quicker, deeper and cleaner than stone or shell. The metal blade gave the artist greater control and allowed him to develop decorative elements that could not be achieved with stone tools: complex surface decorations and intricate openwork forms. Carvers worked faster, which led to decadent forms and a decline in quality. {I would question that statement} The metal cut is usually straight, sharp, deep, clean and > cold<
The of a non metal tool makes a wide, shallow and smooth-sided cut and leaves tiny scratch marks. The bottom of the cut often has a matted appearance, where the blade has only crushed the fibers rather than cut them.

Quite interesting.

My bill seems to have been carved with stone or shell unless the metal tools were heavy and very blunt.

Picture - Blacksmiths Doreh Bay from Voyage pittoresque autour du monde Paris 1835

Tim Simmons · 7th June 2006, 09:01 PM

Hot stuff.

IainN · 7th June 2006, 09:33 PM

Wow, the one chap has nice dreds.

A little more searching in various ethnographic collections has turned up examples of sawfish bills collected from Papua New Guinea and no where else. Most are in an unfinished state or with a rough handle integral to the bill itself.

Tim Simmons · 7th June 2006, 09:39 PM

Right on bro!!!

fearn · 7th June 2006, 10:50 PM

Dude, those bullhorn guards really make for cooool weapons!

About ironwork in New Guinea: first, it's great to see that reference. Thanks Tim! Second, the Vogelkop Peninsula is the extreme eastern end of New Guinea, and they've been trading with Indonesia for centuries. That's where the bird of paradise skins were traded, for one thing.

The rest of that big, big island, especially the interior, was largely cut off from trade with the outside world, and that's why they used stone tools.

F

Tim Simmons · 7th June 2006, 10:53 PM

Solid

Andrew · 7th June 2006, 11:24 PM

Irie!

VANDOO · 8th June 2006, 12:19 AM

CHECK OUT THE LARGE FOSSIL SHARK TEETH ON THE TABLE, I WOULD LIKE TO GO SHOPPING THERE WHERE EVER IT IS.

6th June 2006, 06:13 PM	#1
IainN Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 31	interesting sawfish sword This ended a few days ago on Ebay. #6632788597 I got outbid, but it really is a fascinating item I thought others might enjoy seeing.

7th June 2006, 07:59 AM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hi Fearn, I am in total agreement with you on this one . As for the one I post here some time ago. When compered to these fancifully examples, under magnified inspection, the fact that the string around the pommel is hand rolled {the correct weavers term is cordage} though it does not appear to have a function but other bits might be missing? information from the previous thread, also knowing the reputable source. I am happy in the believe that it is the real deal. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 7th June 2006 at 09:52 AM. Reason: clear picture

7th June 2006, 05:48 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Whizzo!!! Extract from- A.Meyer - Oceanic Art - Konemann. Great book and cheap as these things go- Indigenous metalwork in New Guinea dates back to the 16th century, when Moluccan Muslim blacksmiths imported the know-how and raw materials, in the form of bronze, silver and iron bars, to the Triton Bay area of the Vogelkop Peninsula. Silver bracelets and iron spearheads were forged by Papuans blacksmiths using the vertical, twin piston type of bellows. Don Diego de Prado y Tovar attests to this in his captains log of 13 December 1606. Biak Island and Doreh village in Cenderawasih Bay are mentioned in the late 18th and early 19th-century texts as major iron working centers. Dumont d'Urville saw a forge 1827, using the same type of bellows seen 200 years earlier by Don Diego. Small quantities of metal found there way to many parts of New Guinea in pre contact times, either through trade with western tribes and Asian merchants, or acquired by chance from shipwrecks. There were trade links between Micronesia and main land Asia. Spanish galleons bringing gold and silver from the colonies to Manila stopped off in the Marianas from the mid-16th century, and some must have been shipwrecked on there westward route from South America through the northern edge of central Polynesia. The difference between metal and stone is that the sharp edge of a metal blade lasts longer and cuts quicker, deeper and cleaner than stone or shell. The metal blade gave the artist greater control and allowed him to develop decorative elements that could not be achieved with stone tools: complex surface decorations and intricate openwork forms. Carvers worked faster, which led to decadent forms and a decline in quality. {I would question that statement} The metal cut is usually straight, sharp, deep, clean and > cold< The of a non metal tool makes a wide, shallow and smooth-sided cut and leaves tiny scratch marks. The bottom of the cut often has a matted appearance, where the blade has only crushed the fibers rather than cut them. Quite interesting. My bill seems to have been carved with stone or shell unless the metal tools were heavy and very blunt. Picture - Blacksmiths Doreh Bay from Voyage pittoresque autour du monde Paris 1835 Attached Images

6th June 2006, 06:18 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Here is a link containing yet another link pertaining to these items . http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=sawfish

6th June 2006, 07:17 PM	#3
IainN Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 31	Thanks for the link Rick. I mostly noticed this particular example because I'd never seen a hilt configuration like this on a sawfish sword. Of course I have absolutely no idea if it is an old piece (what ever that means ) as the seller indicated, or a tourist curio. But given the general 'look' it doesn't seem "touristy" to me.

6th June 2006, 08:20 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	The hilt and guard does look fairly recent, very little wear or patina on the handle. The saw fish 'bill' does look like it has some age. So possibly a re-hilted piece or a more recent 'marriage' of a sword bill with a hilt. I too think its quite interesting Iain, I have never seen one mounted in this way or one so large.

6th June 2006, 08:38 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	It reminds me a little of Sailor Art because of the neatly carved scrolls ; these pieces can be hard to tie down though .

6th June 2006, 08:42 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Ah! A subject close to my heart. I think it is safe to say that this, fine as it is, is either made for the tourist trade or the handle was fashioned by an owner foreign to where the bill can from. The reddish wood of the guard does look like some timber from around PNG, I can post other examples, and not old. The pale wood must be of the same age and looks really quite recent, a couple of decades? The swirl on the quillions does have a slight Oceanic feel and is quite pleasing, I am not so keen on the handle. I think this is a very fine tourist piece. Much quality tourist work, some now antique is worthy of artistic consideration.

7th June 2006, 03:42 AM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, Here we go again! (see the other sawfish link). I'm not sure about the age. I'm leaning towards more recent, because I'm not seeing a lot of patina on the handle or the guard. design: those scrolls on the guard are definitely European style, as is the pommel. I don't think this is made to any indigenous PNG designs, although it could have been made in PNG for tourists. With those scrolls, it was pretty definitely made with steel tools, not bone or stone. Materials: if the seller is right, I would guess it was made in the US, with a lesser alternate being England (or somewhere else where they could get their hands on walnut, bamboo, and oak, or whatever the pommel is). I'd also note that unworked sawfish bills turn up regularly on eBay, so it's pretty easy to get the materials to make this creation. My diagnosis is that it's another "sailor-made" (not a derogatory term) or hobbyist made piece, of fairly recent vintage (last 50 years). I've seen some very similar swordfish bill swords sold on eBay, and they were made in New England or maritime Canada (don't remember at the moment). As with the other sawfish bill, we're missing a lot of clues that would let us give it a provenance. Whoever made it had access to 1) a sawfish bill (bought or caught), 2) woodworking tools, 3) some dark wood and some light wood, and 4) some bamboo (assuming that's what the grip is). That doesn't eliminate much of the world, unfortunately. My 0.02 cents, F

7th June 2006, 11:40 AM	#9
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	A few years back (~2000) I was in Valparaiso Chile and there were several street vendors along the beach selling these things to tourist for a few dollars a copy. IIRC prices ranged around $5-$10 each. The blades were made from either swordfish or sawfish bills. n2s

7th June 2006, 02:17 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	n2s, That is very interesting. Mine is old and from different waters. What would the tourists do about cites Prohibitions? Did they have handles?

7th June 2006, 03:02 PM	#11
IainN Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 31	Thanks for the info n2s. Where they in this exact form? If so, then that's extremely useful info. I like these pieces at art objects, but it's good to get an idea of what they sell for in their native market. Fearn, I agree with most of your assessment, but just to be argumentative... Your point about metal tools, wouldn't metal tools be a possibility post-contact, which, theoretically, could still place the item, again theoretically and ignoring all other factors such as the odd form, at 100 years or more? I did turn up one 'real' example which Tim might find interesting if he hasn't seen it already. Not Polynesian, but rather African and collected in 1946. http://anthro.amnh.org/images/full/901/901_7905.jpg

7th June 2006, 03:26 PM	#12
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	Where they in this exact form? They were in a variety of forms, in crude imitation of European styles. There was at least one cart load on the tourist pier and another along the beach front a couple of blocks down. I recall several crusader cross hilts, and a cutlass, but there were more. Unfortunately, I was there on business and these things looked too big and too fragile to carry back to the states. n2s

7th June 2006, 03:30 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	That is a great picture. This is a little of a divergence, I was reading about South Seas artifacts, one source said that in places natives had forges set up by 1840-50s. I will find the exact information latter. The forges were not everywhere but metal for tools was slowly becoming more available and traded.

7th June 2006, 05:20 PM	#15
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, You may well be right about the authenticity of the first sawfish bill. As for this one, it's good to have n2s's information about the sawfish bills in Valparaiso. It makes a fair amount of sense. Given the CITES rules (all sawfish are, I believe, listed species), I don't think I'd try to bring one back to the US. As for steel tools in Oceania, when they came in depends on where you are. Stone tools are still (or were very recently) used one one or two small islands (google on tepuke for an example of canoe building), while the Hawaiians were reshaping iron from nails and bolts very early on. They got the metal through trading with sailors and scavenging wrecks, and taught themselves the rest. Basically, I would guess that a piece could have been made with stone tools before ~1850 in Polynesia or Micronesia (depending on contact date), before 1900 in most of oceanic Melanesia, and before ~1950 in highland PNG (remember that many of the last were contacted until the 1930s or later). In general, steel tools make finer and more complex wood work possible. For instance, the scrolls on the current piece would be very difficult to chip out with a bone chisel. F

7th June 2006, 09:01 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hot stuff.

7th June 2006, 09:33 PM	#18
IainN Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 31	Wow, the one chap has nice dreds. A little more searching in various ethnographic collections has turned up examples of sawfish bills collected from Papua New Guinea and no where else. Most are in an unfinished state or with a rough handle integral to the bill itself.

7th June 2006, 09:39 PM	#19
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Right on bro!!!

7th June 2006, 10:50 PM	#20
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Dude, those bullhorn guards really make for cooool weapons! About ironwork in New Guinea: first, it's great to see that reference. Thanks Tim! Second, the Vogelkop Peninsula is the extreme eastern end of New Guinea, and they've been trading with Indonesia for centuries. That's where the bird of paradise skins were traded, for one thing. The rest of that big, big island, especially the interior, was largely cut off from trade with the outside world, and that's why they used stone tools. F

7th June 2006, 10:53 PM	#21
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Solid

7th June 2006, 11:24 PM	#22
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Irie!

8th June 2006, 12:19 AM	#23
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	CHECK OUT THE LARGE FOSSIL SHARK TEETH ON THE TABLE, I WOULD LIKE TO GO SHOPPING THERE WHERE EVER IT IS.