Sword conservation

[ariel]

I got myself a 7-9 century Khazar saber/palash.
Very rusty, of course, but with a lot of "meat" under the rust/mineral accretions.

I would like to conserve it. Got in touch with conservation departments of a couple of local archeological museums, private conservators etc, but nobody is willing to help. Maximum that I heard from them was " Put it in a plastic bag with silica".

I decided to educate myself and went to the Internet. What is obvious (to me) is that tannic acid should be the final step.
But what should I start with?

Dry removal of accretions? Soaking it in distilled water?

Would be extremely grateful for an educated advice.

Folks, I need help!

[A. G. Maisey]

On three occasions I have attempted to remove heavy corrosion from ferric material.

The first was some sort of fitting from an 19th century sailing ship. I wanted it back to clean iron to use as a part of the material for a knife blade --- forge weld with 01 and maybe a little bit of mild steel. I started with something that looked like half a loaf of bread, I finished with something that looked like a knitting needle.

The second and third tries were with ancient Javanese tools that had been found in a rice field. Again I lost about 95% of the object and what I had left after cleaning had completely lost its original form.

If this sword belonged to me I think I'd be taking the professionals' advice and leaving as is.

[ariel]

Thanks Alan.
My problem is not so much with rust: that's what tannic acid is for. At the most I might consider removing a little bit of loose scales. Rust converters ( tannic acid + polymer) convert soft rust into very hard tannate of iron. I have a 15 century Bauernwehr that was preserved that way: black is beautiful!:-)

In your attempts you actually REMOVED rust, but tannic acid NEEDS rust to form hard substance.


My main problem is lime and some other mineral crud. This will not be affected by the tannic acid and may actually leave untreated, unhardened spots.

Any experience using vinegar? It removes lime stains like magic: I used it on tea kettle, shower glass doors etc with great results.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for that Ariel, I've learnt something.

I've never used tannic acid know nothing about it.

As for vinegar, been using that stuff since I was little kid, like maybe 6 years old. True.It was one of my jobs as kid:- clean the saucepans.

In fact what I use to clean keris blades these days is vinegar, since pineapple juice went bad in this country.

[Martin Lubojacky]

Hi Ariel,

I would suggest, in the case of such old (archeological/field) find, to cooperate with proffesional (museum) conversator. I am of the opinion, that in this (field) case we cannot speak about cleaning, but only about conservation.

If it is my sword, I would slightly mechanically clean the surface to make it smoother. Than, as you wrote, it may be (aspecially in this old case) important to dissolve the ferrous chlorides in destilled water (i have never done it, but I saw conservators - they did it routinely. Re. tannin - I like to use it, because you can like unify various spots to one colour, if you do not clean it after (not only black - but in this case it would be black). Nevertheless I am afraid, that tannin would go only to certain deep, not to the healthy iron kernel in this concrete case - and I do not know how it can influence overal conservation result from long time period point of view(till know I only treated objects with thin layer of rust, with tanin - with good results.) After then it would be important to allow the tanin layer to "season" in colder and wet atmosphere for a few days ..., to become hard, compact.

But I think there are more sofisticated chemical methods, which I don´t know- for treatment of field finds

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for that Ariel, I've learnt something.

I've never used tannic acid know nothing about it.

Hello Alan,

watch out with tannic, it is not as harmless as many people claim.

If you have massive corrosion with deep pitting, tannic is almost useless and it also can ruin the surface of the blade.

Two years ago I tried out tannic on a japanese sword stick. The first attempt was very good, the hamon was very strong and clear. I gave it another try and the second result was horrible, the surface was ruined and the hamon was lost. I still don't know why.

Tannic is a good choice for WW2-pieces with relatively recent corrosion but imho nothing for your sword.

You also should know, that such a deeply corroded sword often looks gruesome after rust removal.

Tannic will be used with water and the water goes everywhere, into the smallest cavities and could make the blade more worse.

My suggestion is simple, use a creeping oil on the surface for at least one year or so and check the surface every two or four weeks. After one or two years of oil-treatment I would use sandpaper or steelwool to finish the surface.

Have you think about elektrolysis? All you need is a car battery charger a bucket and a little bit of baking soda. I already made it and I'm totally satisfied with the result. The heavily corroded japanese arrows in the picture had an electrolysis treatment. The lower part of the shaft is untreated. All you need to do is cleaning the object from time to time during the treatment. Very easy and safe. No acid, no salt and no toxic gases, just a little bit of hydrogen.

Museums often use elektrolysis for restoration.


Roland

[ariel]

Thanks folks!
Please keep going: aside from practical suggestions that becomes a valuable topic for general discussion and use.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

As for vinegar, been using that stuff since I was little kid, like maybe 6 years old. True.It was one of my jobs as kid:- clean the saucepans.

I am glad you remembered the lessons of your youth:-) BTW, your remark was one of the highest inspirations for my attempt of "archeological conservation" . Many thanks!


So: what do you think of my final result?

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually, if I look at the botom pic, it seems as if there is good solid metal under all that rust. If this is representative of the rest of the blade, I feel that I might be brave enough to do a little bit of mechanical cleaning by picking off pieces of rust flakes. Maybe you might be able to get it back to solid metal --- but don't blame if you finish up with a fragile web of holes.

If you took it very slowly by picking and brushing with vinegar and washing, you might finish up with something.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ariel,
I would try to ask Ann Feuerbach, as I think she may know something about it. See the memberlist.
She participated in an excavation at Merv, where they excavated a sword from the 9th century, amongst other things.
Jens

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hello Ariel, You will recall the interesting thread http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...n+conservation where there was an almost eaten away sword that to a large extent was resuscitated...That used a similar technique using tannin and a kiln... The results were not finally posted as I recall...

[TVV]

Ariel, look at this thread:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...ghlight=tannin

If I were you I would start by soaking the blade in distilled water for as long as necessary (could take weeks and many gallons) to make sure you get rid of any salt particles that will otherwise eventually destroy the blade.

Regards,
Teodor