After the Anglo-Sikh wars

Jens Nordlunde · 21st November 2016, 01:38 PM

In The Arts of the Sikh Kingdoms, Susan Stronge has written an article, and on p. 90 she writes.
"The most spectacular cannons were shipped back to Britain; the firearms and other weapons of the Khalsa army which remained in Lahore became Dr Login's responsibility, and the finest were sent to London or sold in Lahore. The rest, purely utiliarian pieces, were recycled. Login wrote to his wife: 'We are now working hard in the magazine, breaking up old arms as fast as we can... already I have supplied Napier with many tons of them for his work on the canals. I had the pleasure of having the first sword brought in converted into capital scythes for mowing the grass in the soldier's gardens.'"

It must have been a very big amount of weapons confiscated and recycled, and we can only guss of the 'small' number sold. To this comes, that the same had happened all over India over a longer period.
Some weapons were recycled, while others were dropped at sea (Coorg). We can only guess how many weapons were destroyed, but we must also remember the very big armies moving around an fighting each other over centuries. The ruler of South India eas said to be able to raise an army of more than one million men.

Jim McDougall · 21st November 2016, 06:07 PM

Thank you Jens for this insightful look into the circumstances concerning Indian arms during these turbulent times and how volumes of these weapons virtually vanished as a result of destruction, recycling and repurposing.
It is hard to imagine just how many weapons were produced and in use in these times and of course those which had been in use from years before, but the sizes of these native armies were often monumental in numbers.

As noted, various armouries which held stockpiles of various edged weapons which were indeed destroyed, however from reading accounts of various writers of the periods such as Walhouse ( "The Old Tanjore Armoury, Indian Antiquary, 1878), it sound as if many of these were piles of unserviceable old weapons.

As with most situations where arms of subjugated people are confiscated and proscribed, those in private hands handily disappeared or were secreted away. Obviously those from campaign and battles became souveniers or trophies aside from other disposal.

The Coorg weapons were dumped at sea in the events and proscriptions of 1850s in large numbers, but certainly did not accomplish more than a grandstand showing emphasizing those efforts. Though considerable depletion of the weapons was accomplished, many still remained in outer regions and production probably covertly done as well.

These circumstances reveal the challenges and intrigue of collecting and studying Indian weapons, and the importance of so many of them which have been documented and preserved as with Jens' collection.

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2016, 08:24 PM

In 1884, Egerton in his introduction to his 'handbook' on Indian arms, noted that there were no works of reference in order to learn about the many forms of weapons they (the British) had been exposed to while there other than scattered notes in 'Oriental' magazines etc.
He proposed to remedy this with his study, begun in 1855, and hoped to instill interest and encourage further investigation into the history, character and uses of these arms,

That interest and enthusiasm, did not evolve as he had hoped, aside from occasional articles and papers and a few references here and there, and though certain attention given in works of Oldman and Stone, it was pretty much a century before any serious study really received notice.

The important work by Rawson, Pant, Haider, Elgood and sundry other articles have been the core of study for any collector or scholar intrepid enough to venture into this fascinating and complex field of arms.
Jens has now added his most important catalog to the corpus of key published material, and as Egerton a century and a half before, has implored students of arms to continue moving ahead in the study of these arms.

I wanted to add more to my previous post, by referring to the writing of Walhouse in 1878 concerning the state of arms in one of these armouries, and presuming that others may have been in similar state.

"...the armoury consisted of great heaps of old weapons of all conceivable descriptions, lying on the floor of the Sangita Mahal (=music hall)."
The bottom of what seems like a huge swimming pool was "...long occupied by many tons of rusty arms and weapons, in confused heaps, coated and caked together with thick rust."

The long and detailed descriptions by Walhouse presented a wonderous visual perception of what this panorama of Indian arms must have looked like, and as he notes, he was personally viewing this in 1863!

This multitude of Indian arms was "....removed to Trichinapalli, and deposited in the arsenal there, and after a committee of officers had sat upon the multifarious collection and solemnly reported the ancient arms unfit for use in modern warfare, the government after selecting the best for the museum, ordered the residue to be broken up and sold as old iron."

Jens Nordlunde · 27th November 2016, 09:01 PM

Thank you Jim, for taking an interest in this, to me very interesting subject.
I have always wondered why this chapter was neglected, but maybe it then was 'daily work' and not history as it is to day.

Miguel · 7th December 2016, 07:58 PM

Hi Jens, It does you and other serious researchers great credit in uncovering the information you do when destruction on such a scale as described occurred. I am still trying off and on to discover the origin of the Coorg sword and also of the Coorgs themselves with little success up to present, unfortunately. I just wanted to say how much I admire your dedication it is inspirational.

I wanted to respond to your post much earlier but since updating to Windows 10 I seem to have been beset with problems.
Miguel

Jens Nordlunde · 8th December 2016, 02:04 PM

Hi Miguel, you are welcome.
Research can be hard work, and usualy you hit the wall a few or many times, but try to look at it this way. Every time you research, wall or not, you learn something, maybe not what you are looking for - but you still learn something.
Have you tried to dig into the Ellora Caves? They were made from the 6th to the 10th century, and represents three different religions. The paintings and statues are said to represent all the weapons used in this period. Maybe you will find ssomething which will give you a pointer.
When I researched how old the katar is, I read about the caves, and saw that no katars were shown/mentioned, so I knew that the katar was not that old, or at least not used in this area at the time.
Good luck.
Jens

Kmaddock · 8th December 2016, 05:01 PM

Hi
At a recent auction I saw the following lot of chopped down Indian weaponry
(sold a week or so ago)
this is what it must have looked like in the smelting pots when all these weapons were being destroyed
regards
Ken

Jens Nordlunde · 8th December 2016, 06:16 PM

Ken, this is really a chock to me. I knew this was happening, but to see the weapons - what a pity.
I wonder how these 'weapons' got to Europe in this condition. Who would want to toutch them from they were sawn off?

Jens Nordlunde · 9th December 2016, 01:02 PM

Ken it is quite a nice mansion house build end of 18th century.
If the owner of the mansion house was in India at the time of destruction, one can wonder why he could not lay his hands on the swords and daggers before the destruction.
If he could not, and this seems to be obvious, why wouldd he want destructed weapons? At the time there should be plenty of intact weapons to be had - especially if you were English and had a few connections.

The new owner may remove the rests of the blades and restore the hilts, and maybe be looking for other blades - who knows?
I like the two katars.

ariel · 9th December 2016, 01:18 PM

The remnant of a patissa on the last pic is interesting: the blade widens toward the handle.

What a waste....

David R · 11th December 2016, 07:49 AM

I would imagine that they were part of a wall display or trophy of arms. One where the swords were arrayed behind a Dhal or other shield with the hilts and a short section of blade visible, and the rest of the blade surplus to requirement.

Kmaddock · 11th December 2016, 09:25 AM

Good theory David
There was only one Dahl in the auction and it was in good condition. The display would have to have been taken apart a long time to have such variance in condition. But I like the idea you propose we will never know real reason.
Maybe a relative sent the items home to Scotland and subsequently was killed in India and the family broke up the items in anger? Who knows.
Ken

Jens Nordlunde · 11th December 2016, 03:51 PM

I dont know what happened, but maybe someone at the Capenoch House would have a family story about these weapons.
It is vandalism any way you see it, and some of the weapons are not only old, but very old - 500 years or more.

21st November 2016, 01:38 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	After the Anglo-Sikh wars In The Arts of the Sikh Kingdoms, Susan Stronge has written an article, and on p. 90 she writes. "The most spectacular cannons were shipped back to Britain; the firearms and other weapons of the Khalsa army which remained in Lahore became Dr Login's responsibility, and the finest were sent to London or sold in Lahore. The rest, purely utiliarian pieces, were recycled. Login wrote to his wife: 'We are now working hard in the magazine, breaking up old arms as fast as we can... already I have supplied Napier with many tons of them for his work on the canals. I had the pleasure of having the first sword brought in converted into capital scythes for mowing the grass in the soldier's gardens.'" It must have been a very big amount of weapons confiscated and recycled, and we can only guss of the 'small' number sold. To this comes, that the same had happened all over India over a longer period. Some weapons were recycled, while others were dropped at sea (Coorg). We can only guess how many weapons were destroyed, but we must also remember the very big armies moving around an fighting each other over centuries. The ruler of South India eas said to be able to raise an army of more than one million men.

8th December 2016, 05:01 PM	#7
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi At a recent auction I saw the following lot of chopped down Indian weaponry (sold a week or so ago) this is what it must have looked like in the smelting pots when all these weapons were being destroyed regards Ken Attached Images

21st November 2016, 06:07 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Thank you Jens for this insightful look into the circumstances concerning Indian arms during these turbulent times and how volumes of these weapons virtually vanished as a result of destruction, recycling and repurposing. It is hard to imagine just how many weapons were produced and in use in these times and of course those which had been in use from years before, but the sizes of these native armies were often monumental in numbers. As noted, various armouries which held stockpiles of various edged weapons which were indeed destroyed, however from reading accounts of various writers of the periods such as Walhouse ( "The Old Tanjore Armoury, Indian Antiquary, 1878), it sound as if many of these were piles of unserviceable old weapons. As with most situations where arms of subjugated people are confiscated and proscribed, those in private hands handily disappeared or were secreted away. Obviously those from campaign and battles became souveniers or trophies aside from other disposal. The Coorg weapons were dumped at sea in the events and proscriptions of 1850s in large numbers, but certainly did not accomplish more than a grandstand showing emphasizing those efforts. Though considerable depletion of the weapons was accomplished, many still remained in outer regions and production probably covertly done as well. These circumstances reveal the challenges and intrigue of collecting and studying Indian weapons, and the importance of so many of them which have been documented and preserved as with Jens' collection.

27th November 2016, 08:24 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	In 1884, Egerton in his introduction to his 'handbook' on Indian arms, noted that there were no works of reference in order to learn about the many forms of weapons they (the British) had been exposed to while there other than scattered notes in 'Oriental' magazines etc. He proposed to remedy this with his study, begun in 1855, and hoped to instill interest and encourage further investigation into the history, character and uses of these arms, That interest and enthusiasm, did not evolve as he had hoped, aside from occasional articles and papers and a few references here and there, and though certain attention given in works of Oldman and Stone, it was pretty much a century before any serious study really received notice. The important work by Rawson, Pant, Haider, Elgood and sundry other articles have been the core of study for any collector or scholar intrepid enough to venture into this fascinating and complex field of arms. Jens has now added his most important catalog to the corpus of key published material, and as Egerton a century and a half before, has implored students of arms to continue moving ahead in the study of these arms. I wanted to add more to my previous post, by referring to the writing of Walhouse in 1878 concerning the state of arms in one of these armouries, and presuming that others may have been in similar state. "...the armoury consisted of great heaps of old weapons of all conceivable descriptions, lying on the floor of the Sangita Mahal (=music hall)." The bottom of what seems like a huge swimming pool was "...long occupied by many tons of rusty arms and weapons, in confused heaps, coated and caked together with thick rust." The long and detailed descriptions by Walhouse presented a wonderous visual perception of what this panorama of Indian arms must have looked like, and as he notes, he was personally viewing this in 1863! This multitude of Indian arms was "....removed to Trichinapalli, and deposited in the arsenal there, and after a committee of officers had sat upon the multifarious collection and solemnly reported the ancient arms unfit for use in modern warfare, the government after selecting the best for the museum, ordered the residue to be broken up and sold as old iron."

27th November 2016, 09:01 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you Jim, for taking an interest in this, to me very interesting subject. I have always wondered why this chapter was neglected, but maybe it then was 'daily work' and not history as it is to day.

7th December 2016, 07:58 PM	#5
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Hi Jens, It does you and other serious researchers great credit in uncovering the information you do when destruction on such a scale as described occurred. I am still trying off and on to discover the origin of the Coorg sword and also of the Coorgs themselves with little success up to present, unfortunately. I just wanted to say how much I admire your dedication it is inspirational. I wanted to respond to your post much earlier but since updating to Windows 10 I seem to have been beset with problems. Miguel

8th December 2016, 02:04 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Miguel, you are welcome. Research can be hard work, and usualy you hit the wall a few or many times, but try to look at it this way. Every time you research, wall or not, you learn something, maybe not what you are looking for - but you still learn something. Have you tried to dig into the Ellora Caves? They were made from the 6th to the 10th century, and represents three different religions. The paintings and statues are said to represent all the weapons used in this period. Maybe you will find ssomething which will give you a pointer. When I researched how old the katar is, I read about the caves, and saw that no katars were shown/mentioned, so I knew that the katar was not that old, or at least not used in this area at the time. Good luck. Jens

8th December 2016, 06:16 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ken, this is really a chock to me. I knew this was happening, but to see the weapons - what a pity. I wonder how these 'weapons' got to Europe in this condition. Who would want to toutch them from they were sawn off?

9th December 2016, 01:02 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ken it is quite a nice mansion house build end of 18th century. If the owner of the mansion house was in India at the time of destruction, one can wonder why he could not lay his hands on the swords and daggers before the destruction. If he could not, and this seems to be obvious, why wouldd he want destructed weapons? At the time there should be plenty of intact weapons to be had - especially if you were English and had a few connections. The new owner may remove the rests of the blades and restore the hilts, and maybe be looking for other blades - who knows? I like the two katars.

9th December 2016, 01:18 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The remnant of a patissa on the last pic is interesting: the blade widens toward the handle. What a waste....

11th December 2016, 07:49 AM	#11
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	I would imagine that they were part of a wall display or trophy of arms. One where the swords were arrayed behind a Dhal or other shield with the hilts and a short section of blade visible, and the rest of the blade surplus to requirement.

11th December 2016, 09:25 AM	#12
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Good theory David There was only one Dahl in the auction and it was in good condition. The display would have to have been taken apart a long time to have such variance in condition. But I like the idea you propose we will never know real reason. Maybe a relative sent the items home to Scotland and subsequently was killed in India and the family broke up the items in anger? Who knows. Ken

11th December 2016, 03:51 PM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I dont know what happened, but maybe someone at the Capenoch House would have a family story about these weapons. It is vandalism any way you see it, and some of the weapons are not only old, but very old - 500 years or more.