Mystery dagger

motan · 28th July 2019, 04:03 PM

Some of you may have seen it because I have asked around privately.
This is a small dagger, 25cm I bought as "Iraqi Shibriya, Late 19th century".
Unfortunately no scabbard. What puzzles me is that I have never seen any similar piece before. The decoration and construction look Arabian to me, but the bulge with grooves in the hilt is an Iraqi/Syrian feature. The general shape has vague similarity to Marsh Arab daggers. The blade may be wootz and looks like it is reused, but I am reluctant to etch it. Any thought are welcome.

kronckew · 28th July 2019, 05:45 PM

More like a Jambiyah, I think.

My shabriyah: Grips have similar shapes, blades differ greatly tho.

Kubur · 28th July 2019, 07:36 PM

Hi Motan

Yes for me no doubt it's an Iraqi March Arab dagger.
You are right this dagger shares a lot of features with khanjar and jambiya.
I guess they were produced by Arabs for the Arabs and this linkage makes senses.
Yes the blade looks like wootz maybe from a Persian blade...

Kubur

motan · 28th July 2019, 10:00 PM

Hi Krockew and Kubur, and thanks for your reactions.
Kronckew, the question of what is Shibriya and what is not is quite complex and there are examples of daggers called Shibriya that have a Jambiya-style curved blades, not re-curve like yours and the majority of Shibriyas (A.Alnakkas has several of those). But that is beside the point because I would not call mine a Shibriya - it was just the seller's idea.
Kubur, you agree with me and I with you and we are both probably right. However, the fact remains that I have never seen a Marsh Arab dagger that looks anything similar to this one. Maybe, but that is no more than a guess, it is older than late 19th c by several decades.

kahnjar1 · 28th July 2019, 10:38 PM

Hi Eytan,
What a nice and unusual dagger. As to where it is from, I really don't know, but the blade fits with either the Kurdish or the Marsh dagger. The handle though to me looks Arabian and resembles closely those of the Hijaz/Asir Dharia daggers. Size of course is much smaller.
So it could be a put together item..............??????????????
When I get a chance I will have a look thru some books I have to see if I can find an exact match for the handle shape.
Stu

Kubur · 29th July 2019, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Maybe, but that is no more than a guess, it is older than late 19th c by several decades.

Agreed could be early 19th or even earlier
Look at the medium part of the hilt the same engravings than the ones on Arab March daggers...
Yours is just dressed with silver but the silver is very much worked like in the Arab peninsula.

motan · 29th July 2019, 07:08 AM

Hi Stu,
Thanks for your response and please have a look in your books when you can. Literature that covers Iraqi daggers is very rare as far as I know. I don't know what you mean by "put together". It is of mixed styles and the blade is probably made with an old Persian blade, but that is it.

Kubur,
The resemblance to Marsh Arab dagger is certainly there. I know them and have one myself, like many other forum members. Nice print too. Together with the Arabian style silver decoration, it places the dagger somewhere in Southern Iraq (by circumstantial evidence).
That bead-like bulge in the middle of the hilt is I think an Ottoman-Syrian feature that dates at least to the 18th c. It appears in several types of daggers, like Marsh Arab and later in Majdalis.

28th July 2019, 04:03 PM	#1
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Mystery dagger Some of you may have seen it because I have asked around privately. This is a small dagger, 25cm I bought as "Iraqi Shibriya, Late 19th century". Unfortunately no scabbard. What puzzles me is that I have never seen any similar piece before. The decoration and construction look Arabian to me, but the bulge with grooves in the hilt is an Iraqi/Syrian feature. The general shape has vague similarity to Marsh Arab daggers. The blade may be wootz and looks like it is reused, but I am reluctant to etch it. Any thought are welcome. Attached Images

28th July 2019, 05:45 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	More like a Jambiyah, I think. My shabriyah: Grips have similar shapes, blades differ greatly tho. Attached Images

29th July 2019, 07:08 AM	#7
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Stu, Thanks for your response and please have a look in your books when you can. Literature that covers Iraqi daggers is very rare as far as I know. I don't know what you mean by "put together". It is of mixed styles and the blade is probably made with an old Persian blade, but that is it. Kubur, The resemblance to Marsh Arab dagger is certainly there. I know them and have one myself, like many other forum members. Nice print too. Together with the Arabian style silver decoration, it places the dagger somewhere in Southern Iraq (by circumstantial evidence). That bead-like bulge in the middle of the hilt is I think an Ottoman-Syrian feature that dates at least to the 18th c. It appears in several types of daggers, like Marsh Arab and later in Majdalis. Attached Images

28th July 2019, 07:36 PM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Motan Yes for me no doubt it's an Iraqi March Arab dagger. You are right this dagger shares a lot of features with khanjar and jambiya. I guess they were produced by Arabs for the Arabs and this linkage makes senses. Yes the blade looks like wootz maybe from a Persian blade... Kubur

28th July 2019, 10:00 PM	#4
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Krockew and Kubur, and thanks for your reactions. Kronckew, the question of what is Shibriya and what is not is quite complex and there are examples of daggers called Shibriya that have a Jambiya-style curved blades, not re-curve like yours and the majority of Shibriyas (A.Alnakkas has several of those). But that is beside the point because I would not call mine a Shibriya - it was just the seller's idea. Kubur, you agree with me and I with you and we are both probably right. However, the fact remains that I have never seen a Marsh Arab dagger that looks anything similar to this one. Maybe, but that is no more than a guess, it is older than late 19th c by several decades.

28th July 2019, 10:38 PM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi Eytan, What a nice and unusual dagger. As to where it is from, I really don't know, but the blade fits with either the Kurdish or the Marsh dagger. The handle though to me looks Arabian and resembles closely those of the Hijaz/Asir Dharia daggers. Size of course is much smaller. So it could be a put together item..............?????????????? When I get a chance I will have a look thru some books I have to see if I can find an exact match for the handle shape. Stu