Ottoman Pala

ariel · 24th January 2008, 03:22 AM

Just ended
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=014
Barbarically kitschy, but that was the style...
With all due respect and admiration, I am very uneasy about the state of koftgari: isn't it incredibly intact on the background of a heavily cleaned blade? And the crosshatching looks as new as the day it was made ( Hm-m-m-m....)
Opinions of professional blade restorers ( Battara, where are you?) would be intriguing.

Jim McDougall · 24th January 2008, 06:15 AM

It is interesting that the term 'palasche' is used in the auction description of this lavishly decorated sword which is of course,as further noted, an Ottoman pala.
The palasche description is noted from an uncited book on Islamic weapons, which apparantly describes a similar example as an 'Egyptian palasche'. I think the term may derive from the Stone reference (p.479) which illustrates this as a 'Polish sabre' of 17th century with blades either straight or very curved. Obviously the term either readjusted or became misconstrued as it seems now that 'pallasch' refers to a straight bladed sword. Of further interest in the entry is that the sabres shown in Stone, similar in mounts to the kilic/pala, the lavish decoration described as gold damascened and set with coral and turquoise.

As Turkish swords clearly had profound influence on the swords of Poland, despite the obvious conflicts, it is simply interesting to note the similarity of decoration, clearly Ottoman derived from 17th c. and the use of the palasche term in the uncited reference noting Egyptian attribution.

It seems that I have seen a similar example a number of years ago with lavish coral decoration of this type in a pamphlet on Islamic arms which I believe was Rich Wagners collection and I believe the text was by the late Walter Karcheski, and though only a few pages, pretty fantastic! I regret that I cannot recall the specifics, but it seems it was suggested that the sword was from Algeria. I believe these may have been for presentation or diplomatic gifts in the expansive Ottoman Empire.

With diplomatic or presentation swords, if I am not mistaken, it is not uncommon to have koftgari applied and or wording etc. placed on trophy blades which are then mounted, as this may have been. I recall seeing references and illustrations referring to this practice in Russia with older trophy blades with gold inlaid wording as awards to officers for gallantry etc. While this is just an example, it seems of course a widespread practice which likely included the Ottomans.

Although the decoration seems a bit overdone

I must admit I've developed a keen admiration for coral and turquoise while travelling through the southwest lately! I am curious about the symbolic or superstitious application of these stones in the parlance of the Middle East.

ALEX · 24th January 2008, 12:03 PM

Ariel, your opinion is very valid. Not only state of coftgari is questionable, but the way/quality of application. It is not "True Inlay", as one would expect on true quality Pala blade. Moreover, it's poorly executed, considering authentic examples. I suspect the whole blade is new (relatively) and I've seen similar Pala blades coming out of India. I have a picture somewhere and will find/post it soon.

olikara · 24th January 2008, 12:08 PM

I'm already feeling sorry for the buyer.

10,600 USD is a big deal anywhere.

ALEX · 24th January 2008, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olikara

I'm already feeling sorry for the buyer.

10,600 USD is a big deal anywhere.

10K would be a Great Deal IF this Pala would have authentic blade and coftgari. As Ariel noted, both look suspicious, i.e. not authentic, and I suspect even new. Any other opinions/observations?

ariel · 24th January 2008, 04:50 PM

I am not saying the blade is new/replaced: it fits the scabbard very well. Taking into account the complexity of this particular scabbard and the need to create custom scabbards for each individual blade ( to account for the curve), I am sure that the blade is authentic.
The inscription, IMHO, is very recent, however.
So, the question will be: does a Kilij/Pala with a sumptuos furniture but with an unembellished, likely unmarked, blade justify such a high price? I think, yes. Not long ago, a somewhat similar sword, with (likely) ruined blade but with gorgeous furniture was sold for ~$20K. It was bought purely for the scabbard.
The price is a matter for the buyer: perhaps, he has a client to whom he can resell it for twice as much.
The real question is: is it legitimate to embellish blades with inscriptions to make it more attractive but in exchange to cloud the origins of the sword for future research ? If, as I suspect, the koftgari is new, the true origins of this Pala are now contaminated with erroneous information.

rand · 24th January 2008, 06:18 PM

Have always thought this type of sword to be styled after the Sword of the Prophet kept in Tokapi Palace Museum pictured on page 15 in Yucels book, Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths. This sword has a gold scabbard/hilt adorned with rubies and turquoise.

The 18th/19th C. similar swords have a copper scabbard/hilt that has gold over a silver wash with coral and turquoise in bezels. The blades in the latter examples vary from a low quality blade to a high quality kilij. Most often the gold koftgari on these blades is a fairly low quality but occaissionally a nice example is found.

The attached example is from the early 18th C. and has I high quality kilij blade, also with low quality koftgari.

Have a photo of the Prophets sword but could not make image size small enough, can email that pic to anyone that would like to see it.

These are very desirable swords and highly sought after.....

rand

ALEX · 24th January 2008, 07:45 PM

I would not dismiss an idea that the blade is/was replaced because I've seen these swords and know people who can modify ANY scabbard for ANY blade and make it look 100% authentic. Looking at just pictures one will NEVER tell.

Below is a picture of newly made Pala sword. The blade of classical Kilij form was just made in India. A new coftgari is being applied as you read this post somewhere in Syria...:-)

24th January 2008, 03:22 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ottoman Pala Just ended http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=014 Barbarically kitschy, but that was the style... With all due respect and admiration, I am very uneasy about the state of koftgari: isn't it incredibly intact on the background of a heavily cleaned blade? And the crosshatching looks as new as the day it was made ( Hm-m-m-m....) Opinions of professional blade restorers ( Battara, where are you?) would be intriguing.

24th January 2008, 12:08 PM	#4
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 100	Sad I'm already feeling sorry for the buyer. 10,600 USD is a big deal anywhere.

24th January 2008, 06:18 PM	#7
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Kilij Have always thought this type of sword to be styled after the Sword of the Prophet kept in Tokapi Palace Museum pictured on page 15 in Yucels book, Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths. This sword has a gold scabbard/hilt adorned with rubies and turquoise. The 18th/19th C. similar swords have a copper scabbard/hilt that has gold over a silver wash with coral and turquoise in bezels. The blades in the latter examples vary from a low quality blade to a high quality kilij. Most often the gold koftgari on these blades is a fairly low quality but occaissionally a nice example is found. The attached example is from the early 18th C. and has I high quality kilij blade, also with low quality koftgari. Have a photo of the Prophets sword but could not make image size small enough, can email that pic to anyone that would like to see it. These are very desirable swords and highly sought after..... rand Attached Images

24th January 2008, 07:45 PM	#8
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I would not dismiss an idea that the blade is/was replaced because I've seen these swords and know people who can modify ANY scabbard for ANY blade and make it look 100% authentic. Looking at just pictures one will NEVER tell. Below is a picture of newly made Pala sword. The blade of classical Kilij form was just made in India. A new coftgari is being applied as you read this post somewhere in Syria...:-) Attached Images

24th January 2008, 06:15 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	It is interesting that the term 'palasche' is used in the auction description of this lavishly decorated sword which is of course,as further noted, an Ottoman pala. The palasche description is noted from an uncited book on Islamic weapons, which apparantly describes a similar example as an 'Egyptian palasche'. I think the term may derive from the Stone reference (p.479) which illustrates this as a 'Polish sabre' of 17th century with blades either straight or very curved. Obviously the term either readjusted or became misconstrued as it seems now that 'pallasch' refers to a straight bladed sword. Of further interest in the entry is that the sabres shown in Stone, similar in mounts to the kilic/pala, the lavish decoration described as gold damascened and set with coral and turquoise. As Turkish swords clearly had profound influence on the swords of Poland, despite the obvious conflicts, it is simply interesting to note the similarity of decoration, clearly Ottoman derived from 17th c. and the use of the palasche term in the uncited reference noting Egyptian attribution. It seems that I have seen a similar example a number of years ago with lavish coral decoration of this type in a pamphlet on Islamic arms which I believe was Rich Wagners collection and I believe the text was by the late Walter Karcheski, and though only a few pages, pretty fantastic! I regret that I cannot recall the specifics, but it seems it was suggested that the sword was from Algeria. I believe these may have been for presentation or diplomatic gifts in the expansive Ottoman Empire. With diplomatic or presentation swords, if I am not mistaken, it is not uncommon to have koftgari applied and or wording etc. placed on trophy blades which are then mounted, as this may have been. I recall seeing references and illustrations referring to this practice in Russia with older trophy blades with gold inlaid wording as awards to officers for gallantry etc. While this is just an example, it seems of course a widespread practice which likely included the Ottomans. Although the decoration seems a bit overdone I must admit I've developed a keen admiration for coral and turquoise while travelling through the southwest lately! I am curious about the symbolic or superstitious application of these stones in the parlance of the Middle East.

24th January 2008, 12:03 PM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Ariel, your opinion is very valid. Not only state of coftgari is questionable, but the way/quality of application. It is not "True Inlay", as one would expect on true quality Pala blade. Moreover, it's poorly executed, considering authentic examples. I suspect the whole blade is new (relatively) and I've seen similar Pala blades coming out of India. I have a picture somewhere and will find/post it soon.

24th January 2008, 04:50 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am not saying the blade is new/replaced: it fits the scabbard very well. Taking into account the complexity of this particular scabbard and the need to create custom scabbards for each individual blade ( to account for the curve), I am sure that the blade is authentic. The inscription, IMHO, is very recent, however. So, the question will be: does a Kilij/Pala with a sumptuos furniture but with an unembellished, likely unmarked, blade justify such a high price? I think, yes. Not long ago, a somewhat similar sword, with (likely) ruined blade but with gorgeous furniture was sold for ~$20K. It was bought purely for the scabbard. The price is a matter for the buyer: perhaps, he has a client to whom he can resell it for twice as much. The real question is: is it legitimate to embellish blades with inscriptions to make it more attractive but in exchange to cloud the origins of the sword for future research ? If, as I suspect, the koftgari is new, the true origins of this Pala are now contaminated with erroneous information.