Oceanic clubs

Gavin Nugent · 4th December 2008, 12:20 PM

I have of late taken an interest in axes and clubs again, I think it is the simple brutal nature of these impliments.
I just secured these two in a deceased estate auction in the UK. I beleive they are Massim clubs??? I think they might be quite old looking at them too. Although they lack the engravings that I have seen in Massims clubs, to me they do resemble them. The one on the right looks a little different and may have another origin as the timber looks like that found in many Kris sheaths.
They both measure 73 cms long, at this point it is the only dimensions I have.
I would love to hear more about these from those who are well versed in the subject as I can only find one posting on Massim weapons in the forum. I have looked a little else where and seen these smooth clubs referred to as dance clubs??? Are they weapons or ceremonial??? They do look like they would cleave a skull very well.

Gav

VANDOO · 4th December 2008, 08:04 PM

BOTH DO APPEAR TO BE GOOD OLD CLUBS FROM NEW GUINEA. MOST ARE REFERRED TO AS MASSIM CLUBS BUT THERE MAY HAVE BEEN OTHER TRIBES WHO USED THIS FORM OF CLUB, I DON'T HAVE ANY REFRENCES TO SORT IT OUT.
THE TWO YOU HAVE DO APPEAR TO BE FROM THE PERIOD WHEN THEY WERE USED FOR FIGHTING. MOST OF THOSE SEEN FOR SALE ON EBAY BY ETH.ART DEALERS TODAY ARE NEW WITH NICE CARVED DESIGNS AND ARE DEFINITELY DANCE CLUBS THEY DO MAKE GOOD WALL HANGERS AND SOME DO SHOW THE CARVING ABILITYS OF THE LOCALS, THEY ALSO SELL A LOT OF WELL CARVED LIME SPATULAS AND BOWLS.
AS TO DANCE CLUBS MOST ANY CLUB MADE TODAY IF USED IN THE TRIBAL SOCIETY IN ANY OTHER WAY THAN TO SELL TO DEALERS OR TOURISTS WOULD ONLY BE USED IN CEREMONIES OR DANCES.
IN THE OLD DAYS THEY WERE USED IN DANCES TO PREPARE FOR A BATTLE AND IN A DANCE AFTERWARDS TO SHOW HOW BRAVE THEY WERE AND HOW THEY DESTROYED THEIR ENEMYS. IN THOSE DAYS YOU NOT ONLY HAD TO FIGHT BUT YOU HAD TO PERFORM AND TELL YOUR PART IN THE BATTLE ONCE YOU RETURNED TO THE VILLAGE OFTEN IN THE FORM OF A DANCE. I AM NOT SURE WHY THIS IS BUT IT SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN A COMMON PRACTICE WORLD WIDE IN TRIBAL SOCIETYS. MANY DANCES WERE OFTEN MARTIAL ART TRAINING SORT OF LIKE THE KATA IN TODAYS MARTIAL ARTS. THIS WAS ESPECIALLY TRUE IN OCEANIC ,POLYNESIAN SOCIETYS.

asomotif · 4th December 2008, 09:32 PM

It looks like those massim also liked cricket

But seriously, this form is not something I have seen before.
Where exactely would they come from ? (geograhpically)

Best regards,
Willem

Tim Simmons · 4th December 2008, 09:36 PM

It is a little hard to say anything from these pictures, taken from such a stange angle. Why do people do this. What you want is simple mug shot like pictures. They look just a little rude in manufacture to me but as I say the pictures do not help. Weapons and artifacts can appear crude at first glance from these regions. I feel that anything for serious use is usually well made and clear in any ones eye. Best await better pics.

fearn · 5th December 2008, 02:01 AM

Hi Willem,

The Massim area is the eastern end of Papua New Guinea (Milne Bay) and adjoining islands. Some of Massim's claims to fame are the Kula Ring "trading" network and the Trobriand Islands, where Malinowski did much of his fieldwork for Argonauts of the Western Pacific.

I agree that these look like Massim-area clubs, but I have no idea about the range of that particular form, or whether it is used outside the Massim area.

My 0.002 cents,

F

Gavin Nugent · 5th December 2008, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

BOTH DO APPEAR TO BE GOOD OLD CLUBS FROM NEW GUINEA. MOST ARE REFERRED TO AS MASSIM CLUBS BUT THERE MAY HAVE BEEN OTHER TRIBES WHO USED THIS FORM OF CLUB, I DON'T HAVE ANY REFRENCES TO SORT IT OUT.
THE TWO YOU HAVE DO APPEAR TO BE FROM THE PERIOD WHEN THEY WERE USED FOR FIGHTING. MOST OF THOSE SEEN FOR SALE ON EBAY BY ETH.ART DEALERS TODAY ARE NEW WITH NICE CARVED DESIGNS AND ARE DEFINITELY DANCE CLUBS THEY DO MAKE GOOD WALL HANGERS AND SOME DO SHOW THE CARVING ABILITYS OF THE LOCALS, THEY ALSO SELL A LOT OF WELL CARVED LIME SPATULAS AND BOWLS.
AS TO DANCE CLUBS MOST ANY CLUB MADE TODAY IF USED IN THE TRIBAL SOCIETY IN ANY OTHER WAY THAN TO SELL TO DEALERS OR TOURISTS WOULD ONLY BE USED IN CEREMONIES OR DANCES.
IN THE OLD DAYS THEY WERE USED IN DANCES TO PREPARE FOR A BATTLE AND IN A DANCE AFTERWARDS TO SHOW HOW BRAVE THEY WERE AND HOW THEY DESTROYED THEIR ENEMYS. IN THOSE DAYS YOU NOT ONLY HAD TO FIGHT BUT YOU HAD TO PERFORM AND TELL YOUR PART IN THE BATTLE ONCE YOU RETURNED TO THE VILLAGE OFTEN IN THE FORM OF A DANCE. I AM NOT SURE WHY THIS IS BUT IT SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN A COMMON PRACTICE WORLD WIDE IN TRIBAL SOCIETYS. MANY DANCES WERE OFTEN MARTIAL ART TRAINING SORT OF LIKE THE KATA IN TODAYS MARTIAL ARTS. THIS WAS ESPECIALLY TRUE IN OCEANIC ,POLYNESIAN SOCIETYS.

Outstanding points of reference thanks Vandoo.
I cannot find any reference at this point int time for these smooth clubs without markings as usually found with this shape. Can anyone suggest some light reading on the matter? I am starting to take an interest in weapons of our Australian neighbours . The hilt differences are interesting to me too. the one on the left almost reminds me of a Bhutanese sword hilt. There is one small pic in Stones under clubs that point to this shape being as you say New Guinea but this too has engravings on it if you look very close. Who can I ask to discuss age and development of these clubs?

Gav

Gavin Nugent · 5th December 2008, 02:38 AM

Thanks Tim I will sure to post some good images when they arrive and thats for the info you have provided Fearn, very helpful.

Gav

VANDOO · 5th December 2008, 03:00 AM

I USED TO HAVE QUITE A FEW PICTURES OF A GOOD RANGE OF THESE CLUBS AS WELL AS THOUSANDS OF OTHER PICTURES COLLECTED OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS. BUT THE GREAT GOD OF THE INTERNET MICROSOFT RECENTLY GAVE ME A FREE UPGRADE I DID NOT APPROVE OF OR ASK FOR AND IT IS NOW GONE ALONG WITH ALL MY ADDRESSES AND OTHER COMPUTER FILES AND FUNCTIONS. SO I CAN ONLY OFFER PICTURES OF A MAP AND ONE RECENT CLUB SOUVINEER QUALITY, DEFINITELY A DANCE/WALLHANGER. THERE SEEMS TO BE A LOT OF THESE COMING FROM THAT AREA LATELY AS THE EBAY ETH. ART DEALERS HAVE BEEN PUTTING THEM UP A LOT. EVEN THE OLDER PLAIN ONES USED TO BE REASONABLY PRICED BUT NOW THEY ARE WORKS OF ART NOT WEAPONS SO HANG ON TO YOUR WALLET THE SAME CAN BE SAID OF AUSTRALIAN ABORIGINAL WEAPONS LATELY.
BUT THEY ARE STILL A BARGAIN COMPARED TO GOOD SOUTH PACIFIC CLUBS. SUCH AS MARQUESAS, COOK ISLANDS, FIJI, ECT.

Gavin Nugent · 7th December 2008, 01:22 PM

Thanks Vandoo.

Here is a link and a little more info as Fearn has already pointed out. It seems they were an every day use item, maybe the plainer type I presented denote a more common place in their society? Maybe the are just really old?

http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...s/1900.55.400/

Gav

4th December 2008, 12:20 PM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Oceanic clubs I have of late taken an interest in axes and clubs again, I think it is the simple brutal nature of these impliments. I just secured these two in a deceased estate auction in the UK. I beleive they are Massim clubs??? I think they might be quite old looking at them too. Although they lack the engravings that I have seen in Massims clubs, to me they do resemble them. The one on the right looks a little different and may have another origin as the timber looks like that found in many Kris sheaths. They both measure 73 cms long, at this point it is the only dimensions I have. I would love to hear more about these from those who are well versed in the subject as I can only find one posting on Massim weapons in the forum. I have looked a little else where and seen these smooth clubs referred to as dance clubs??? Are they weapons or ceremonial??? They do look like they would cleave a skull very well. Gav Attached Images

5th December 2008, 02:38 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	thanks guys Thanks Tim I will sure to post some good images when they arrive and thats for the info you have provided Fearn, very helpful. Gav

5th December 2008, 03:00 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I USED TO HAVE QUITE A FEW PICTURES OF A GOOD RANGE OF THESE CLUBS AS WELL AS THOUSANDS OF OTHER PICTURES COLLECTED OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS. BUT THE GREAT GOD OF THE INTERNET MICROSOFT RECENTLY GAVE ME A FREE UPGRADE I DID NOT APPROVE OF OR ASK FOR AND IT IS NOW GONE ALONG WITH ALL MY ADDRESSES AND OTHER COMPUTER FILES AND FUNCTIONS. SO I CAN ONLY OFFER PICTURES OF A MAP AND ONE RECENT CLUB SOUVINEER QUALITY, DEFINITELY A DANCE/WALLHANGER. THERE SEEMS TO BE A LOT OF THESE COMING FROM THAT AREA LATELY AS THE EBAY ETH. ART DEALERS HAVE BEEN PUTTING THEM UP A LOT. EVEN THE OLDER PLAIN ONES USED TO BE REASONABLY PRICED BUT NOW THEY ARE WORKS OF ART NOT WEAPONS SO HANG ON TO YOUR WALLET THE SAME CAN BE SAID OF AUSTRALIAN ABORIGINAL WEAPONS LATELY. BUT THEY ARE STILL A BARGAIN COMPARED TO GOOD SOUTH PACIFIC CLUBS. SUCH AS MARQUESAS, COOK ISLANDS, FIJI, ECT. Attached Images

7th December 2008, 01:22 PM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Vandoo Thanks Vandoo. Here is a link and a little more info as Fearn has already pointed out. It seems they were an every day use item, maybe the plainer type I presented denote a more common place in their society? Maybe the are just really old? http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...s/1900.55.400/ Gav

4th December 2008, 08:04 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	BOTH DO APPEAR TO BE GOOD OLD CLUBS FROM NEW GUINEA. MOST ARE REFERRED TO AS MASSIM CLUBS BUT THERE MAY HAVE BEEN OTHER TRIBES WHO USED THIS FORM OF CLUB, I DON'T HAVE ANY REFRENCES TO SORT IT OUT. THE TWO YOU HAVE DO APPEAR TO BE FROM THE PERIOD WHEN THEY WERE USED FOR FIGHTING. MOST OF THOSE SEEN FOR SALE ON EBAY BY ETH.ART DEALERS TODAY ARE NEW WITH NICE CARVED DESIGNS AND ARE DEFINITELY DANCE CLUBS THEY DO MAKE GOOD WALL HANGERS AND SOME DO SHOW THE CARVING ABILITYS OF THE LOCALS, THEY ALSO SELL A LOT OF WELL CARVED LIME SPATULAS AND BOWLS. AS TO DANCE CLUBS MOST ANY CLUB MADE TODAY IF USED IN THE TRIBAL SOCIETY IN ANY OTHER WAY THAN TO SELL TO DEALERS OR TOURISTS WOULD ONLY BE USED IN CEREMONIES OR DANCES. IN THE OLD DAYS THEY WERE USED IN DANCES TO PREPARE FOR A BATTLE AND IN A DANCE AFTERWARDS TO SHOW HOW BRAVE THEY WERE AND HOW THEY DESTROYED THEIR ENEMYS. IN THOSE DAYS YOU NOT ONLY HAD TO FIGHT BUT YOU HAD TO PERFORM AND TELL YOUR PART IN THE BATTLE ONCE YOU RETURNED TO THE VILLAGE OFTEN IN THE FORM OF A DANCE. I AM NOT SURE WHY THIS IS BUT IT SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN A COMMON PRACTICE WORLD WIDE IN TRIBAL SOCIETYS. MANY DANCES WERE OFTEN MARTIAL ART TRAINING SORT OF LIKE THE KATA IN TODAYS MARTIAL ARTS. THIS WAS ESPECIALLY TRUE IN OCEANIC ,POLYNESIAN SOCIETYS.

4th December 2008, 09:32 PM	#3
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	It looks like those massim also liked cricket But seriously, this form is not something I have seen before. Where exactely would they come from ? (geograhpically) Best regards, Willem

4th December 2008, 09:36 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It is a little hard to say anything from these pictures, taken from such a stange angle. Why do people do this. What you want is simple mug shot like pictures. They look just a little rude in manufacture to me but as I say the pictures do not help. Weapons and artifacts can appear crude at first glance from these regions. I feel that anything for serious use is usually well made and clear in any ones eye. Best await better pics.

5th December 2008, 02:01 AM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Willem, The Massim area is the eastern end of Papua New Guinea (Milne Bay) and adjoining islands. Some of Massim's claims to fame are the Kula Ring "trading" network and the Trobriand Islands, where Malinowski did much of his fieldwork for Argonauts of the Western Pacific. I agree that these look like Massim-area clubs, but I have no idea about the range of that particular form, or whether it is used outside the Massim area. My 0.002 cents, F