First Choora

harrywagner · 3rd March 2016, 09:48 PM

A recent purchase. I believe the grip strap and bolsters are steel and the hilt is either bone or horn. The inlay at the forte and on the spine is gold, I think. The blade is a mystery. I am guessing Afghanistan, 19thc.

All comments welcome. TIA!

Harry

mahratt · 3rd March 2016, 10:06 PM

It really is Afghanistan. Handle - bone. Only with this I agree.

harrywagner · 3rd March 2016, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

It really is Afghanistan. Handle - bone. Only with this I agree.

I am frequently wrong, but appreciate the truth. Please feel free to say what you think. I have not had a chance to really look at it closely. I am hoping more experienced collectors can help identify its origin and date. It "seems" old, but I have been fooled before. Many times

Jim McDougall · 4th March 2016, 12:52 AM

While I cannot claim specific expertise in these, I would say that it is a bone handle, and that this example is from early 20th c. These are typically from areas in and around the Khyber Pass, as well as the larger scope of the region known as Waziristan, and often regarded as from the Mahsud tribes of Waziristan.
While these with their distinct shaped hilts which are more of a 'hook' type pommel are termed choora, this seems to have been a vernacular term describing 'knives' which became associated with these apparently much later. In the time these were shown by Egerton (1884) they were, much as in most cases with the variants of these Indian/Afghan daggers, referred to collectively as pesh kabz.

Holstein (1931) shows an entire panel of what appear to be pesh kabz, bicak, karud etc but terms them all classified as pesh kabz.
However, in Egerton's time, Burton (1885) describes a knives in a cummerbund as 'charays' and Egerton himself uses the term ch'hurra as a term for 'knife', but it is not used as a classification.

It is very hard to place these weapons in a certain defined region as clearly they diffused widely via tribal interaction and colonial presence, and to place dates without provenance as the forms remained traditionally continued over long periods. As seen with many forms, even the proper terms are challenging with the situations described here.

I think you can safely presume this is a very nicely done example of 'choora' from Afghan regions in early 20th c .

Photo of Mahsud tribesmen, North West Frontier and map

Gavin Nugent · 4th March 2016, 02:13 AM

Another great assessment Jim.

Harry, I too would place this in the first 20-30years of the 20th century, they were made well after this too I am sure.

There are two schools of thought with these, one is they were never before 1900, the other is that they were...evidence does show these, as Jim referenced, that they appear well before 1900...but back to yours.

The overall designs and material to me, point to the early 20th century. To compare horses to horses, I too have one remaining in my collections, that if you saw it at face value, you'd say 19th century for sure as it is a superb quality for the type and has a wootz blade... but, it is named and dated as Lofty helpfully translated, dated to 1901 in our calendar. One could certainly argue both sides of the fence for it saying the inscription came later and wootz much be earlier, but equally, wootz blades were still being forged in to the early 20th century within Central Asia.

Gav

Bob A · 4th March 2016, 02:54 AM

Hilt is bone, certainly.

What checks me is the decoration. I haven't noted much of the sort of deco on the surface of the blade in the examples I've seen; it seems somehow out of place. Additionally, the brass inserts on the top are also unfamiliar to me. There's a lot of decoration on the top edge of the knife which seems like a lot of effort, but again looks a bit "off" to me. Couple that with the scabbard, which is not as fancy as I'd expect for all the effort put into decorating the knife, and the whole package would put me off, somewhat.

I am far from an expert, so please take my observations with as much salt as you require. While I have no problem attributing the knife to Afghanistan, the bits don't quite add up to being something typically found there, as carried by the locals. I would not at all mind being proved wrong, and pictures of other similar examples would be welcomed.

ariel · 4th March 2016, 03:04 AM

Gavin,
Somehow I missed your wootz Choora dated 1901.
Can you direct me to the topic with pics?
Thanks

3rd March 2016, 09:48 PM	#1
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	First Choora A recent purchase. I believe the grip strap and bolsters are steel and the hilt is either bone or horn. The inlay at the forte and on the spine is gold, I think. The blade is a mystery. I am guessing Afghanistan, 19thc. All comments welcome. TIA! Harry Attached Images

4th March 2016, 12:52 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	While I cannot claim specific expertise in these, I would say that it is a bone handle, and that this example is from early 20th c. These are typically from areas in and around the Khyber Pass, as well as the larger scope of the region known as Waziristan, and often regarded as from the Mahsud tribes of Waziristan. While these with their distinct shaped hilts which are more of a 'hook' type pommel are termed choora, this seems to have been a vernacular term describing 'knives' which became associated with these apparently much later. In the time these were shown by Egerton (1884) they were, much as in most cases with the variants of these Indian/Afghan daggers, referred to collectively as pesh kabz. Holstein (1931) shows an entire panel of what appear to be pesh kabz, bicak, karud etc but terms them all classified as pesh kabz. However, in Egerton's time, Burton (1885) describes a knives in a cummerbund as 'charays' and Egerton himself uses the term ch'hurra as a term for 'knife', but it is not used as a classification. It is very hard to place these weapons in a certain defined region as clearly they diffused widely via tribal interaction and colonial presence, and to place dates without provenance as the forms remained traditionally continued over long periods. As seen with many forms, even the proper terms are challenging with the situations described here. I think you can safely presume this is a very nicely done example of 'choora' from Afghan regions in early 20th c . Photo of Mahsud tribesmen, North West Frontier and map Attached Images

3rd March 2016, 10:06 PM	#2
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	It really is Afghanistan. Handle - bone. Only with this I agree.

4th March 2016, 02:13 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Another great assessment Jim. Harry, I too would place this in the first 20-30years of the 20th century, they were made well after this too I am sure. There are two schools of thought with these, one is they were never before 1900, the other is that they were...evidence does show these, as Jim referenced, that they appear well before 1900...but back to yours. The overall designs and material to me, point to the early 20th century. To compare horses to horses, I too have one remaining in my collections, that if you saw it at face value, you'd say 19th century for sure as it is a superb quality for the type and has a wootz blade... but, it is named and dated as Lofty helpfully translated, dated to 1901 in our calendar. One could certainly argue both sides of the fence for it saying the inscription came later and wootz much be earlier, but equally, wootz blades were still being forged in to the early 20th century within Central Asia. Gav

4th March 2016, 02:54 AM	#6
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	Hilt is bone, certainly. What checks me is the decoration. I haven't noted much of the sort of deco on the surface of the blade in the examples I've seen; it seems somehow out of place. Additionally, the brass inserts on the top are also unfamiliar to me. There's a lot of decoration on the top edge of the knife which seems like a lot of effort, but again looks a bit "off" to me. Couple that with the scabbard, which is not as fancy as I'd expect for all the effort put into decorating the knife, and the whole package would put me off, somewhat. I am far from an expert, so please take my observations with as much salt as you require. While I have no problem attributing the knife to Afghanistan, the bits don't quite add up to being something typically found there, as carried by the locals. I would not at all mind being proved wrong, and pictures of other similar examples would be welcomed.

4th March 2016, 03:04 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Gavin, Somehow I missed your wootz Choora dated 1901. Can you direct me to the topic with pics? Thanks