E-Bay bans all ivory sales!

ariel · 21st October 2008, 09:25 PM

Starting Jan. 1, 2009 there will be NO MORE IVORY SALES ON E-BAY!!!
Say goodbye to yataghans, kindjals, krises and pesh-kabzes....
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081021...adecompanyebay
Shall we remove CITES guidelines from the site? It's like having a "no smoke" sign in the middle of a post-nuclear landscape...

fearn · 21st October 2008, 10:12 PM

Hi Ariel,

Wow, eBay sure knows how to ummmmm...

hmmmm. Actually, I read the full article. EBay will allow: ""will allow some antique (pre-1900) items that contain a small amount of ivory, such as a table with a small ivory inlay or an antique piano with ivory keys...Items which contain a significant amount of ivory, regardless of the age, such as chess sets, ivory broaches and ivory jewelry are not permitted under the new policy."

Anyway, I'd vote for keeping the CITES guidelines up. While we can't buy ivory on eBay, we can get it elsewhere, and it's good for everyone (especially newbies) to know about the law before they get stung by it and forfeit a perfectly legal antique to customs somewhere.

Also note that the ban applies only to elephant ivory. There are other forms of ivory out there (walrus, hippo, etc), and some of them are are also regulated by CITES. and CITES covers a lot more things than ivory, although it's our major concern here. Tiger claws, sea turtle shell, various furs, etc. similar in a weapon are also regulated under CITES

F

TVV · 21st October 2008, 10:21 PM

I don't know Ariel - legislation is worth nothing unless enforced. If a listing has a walrus ivory hilted yataghan, but the description and the title do not contain the word ivory, and instead the yataghan is marketed as "bone-hilted," do you really think eBay will interfere? If sellers want to sell ivory hilted swords and daggers, they will find a way to do it. eBay has done what it needed to do to avoid potential problems and a poor image, but I highly doubt the company will go to great lengths to stop listings which have ivory objects, as long as these listings are not blatantly obvious and easy to find.

BBJW · 21st October 2008, 11:31 PM

Looks like there will be a lot of "white bone" handled blades on Ebay. Maybe more for sale here as well?

How does one tell the difference between marine and elephant ivory?

bbjw

fearn · 21st October 2008, 11:38 PM

Good point, TVV. I wonder what will happen to those "mammal toothed" materials as well? Wonder if anyone here will buy a sword from China with a "white bone" handle?

BBJW: that's a good question, and I personally don't know the answer, beyond examining the piece with a magnifying glass or microscope to look for diagnostic structures. Here's a website that discusses the issue. I doubt that eBay will post pictures of the, ahem, "white bone" handles in microscopic cross section to allow us to ID the material prior to purchasing it.

F

katana · 22nd October 2008, 02:31 AM

I would assume that eBay use an automatic 'search engine'....to search for listings using "ivory" in the description/title. I have seen a number of weapons described as having iv*ry.........ivorry ....and ivery ...so either speeling isn't their strong point (

) or some sellers have the need to hide the 'word' already.
It suggests to me that a 'coded' form of 'ivory' will be used. Sellers would want you to know that it was more than 'mere' bone. Only trouble would be that if a dishonest seller gave you the impression (within the listing) using perhaps, the 'coded' word....that a sword was ivory hilted. Only for the buyer to discover that it was bone......you would have no re-dress through paypal for a refund. Plus the fact you would surely have to prove that the 'code work', say, for instance 'white bone', actually meant 'ivory'., if you tried other means to obtain a refund

Regards David

Atlantia · 22nd October 2008, 01:41 PM

I have mixed feelings about this.
It is far more defensible a decision on ebays part that sooooooo many others they've made.
I mean the list is literally endless.
The debacle about curved swords and Katanas, whilst continuing to allow millions of 'fantasy' knives when their own rules expressly forbid knives designed for combat.
Allowing an endless array of deadly items whilst banning antique guns.
No crossbows but bows are Ok, no BB guns but you can buy broadhead hunting arrows.

But the question of Ivory....
Well, there is still a thriving trade in China for illegally procured Ivory to supply western markets with faked antiques. Thats a good enough reason to try and stamp it out I think.
There's no point in continuing the system as is due to the huge amount of abuse and circumvention.
As David says though, it will have to be rigorously policed!

On a happy note though, Pesh-Kabz are nicer with stone handles!
;-)

Nonoy Tan · 23rd October 2008, 12:53 PM

IMHO, the ban on ivory sales in eBay is good news! Being an underwater photographer, I have a heart too for marine animals that are in danger. I think eBay should also ban Giant Manta Ray skins and dugong (asian sea cow) ivory/bone.

Nonoy

21st October 2008, 09:25 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	E-Bay bans all ivory sales! Starting Jan. 1, 2009 there will be NO MORE IVORY SALES ON E-BAY!!! Say goodbye to yataghans, kindjals, krises and pesh-kabzes.... http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081021...adecompanyebay Shall we remove CITES guidelines from the site? It's like having a "no smoke" sign in the middle of a post-nuclear landscape...

21st October 2008, 10:12 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Ariel, Wow, eBay sure knows how to ummmmm... hmmmm. Actually, I read the full article. EBay will allow: ""will allow some antique (pre-1900) items that contain a small amount of ivory, such as a table with a small ivory inlay or an antique piano with ivory keys...Items which contain a significant amount of ivory, regardless of the age, such as chess sets, ivory broaches and ivory jewelry are not permitted under the new policy." Anyway, I'd vote for keeping the CITES guidelines up. While we can't buy ivory on eBay, we can get it elsewhere, and it's good for everyone (especially newbies) to know about the law before they get stung by it and forfeit a perfectly legal antique to customs somewhere. Also note that the ban applies only to elephant ivory. There are other forms of ivory out there (walrus, hippo, etc), and some of them are are also regulated by CITES. and CITES covers a lot more things than ivory, although it's our major concern here. Tiger claws, sea turtle shell, various furs, etc. similar in a weapon are also regulated under CITES F Last edited by fearn; 21st October 2008 at 11:32 PM. Reason: typos, typos, typos

21st October 2008, 10:21 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	I don't know Ariel - legislation is worth nothing unless enforced. If a listing has a walrus ivory hilted yataghan, but the description and the title do not contain the word ivory, and instead the yataghan is marketed as "bone-hilted," do you really think eBay will interfere? If sellers want to sell ivory hilted swords and daggers, they will find a way to do it. eBay has done what it needed to do to avoid potential problems and a poor image, but I highly doubt the company will go to great lengths to stop listings which have ivory objects, as long as these listings are not blatantly obvious and easy to find.

21st October 2008, 11:31 PM	#4
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 228	Looks like there will be a lot of "white bone" handled blades on Ebay. Maybe more for sale here as well? How does one tell the difference between marine and elephant ivory? bbjw

21st October 2008, 11:38 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Good point, TVV. I wonder what will happen to those "mammal toothed" materials as well? Wonder if anyone here will buy a sword from China with a "white bone" handle? BBJW: that's a good question, and I personally don't know the answer, beyond examining the piece with a magnifying glass or microscope to look for diagnostic structures. Here's a website that discusses the issue. I doubt that eBay will post pictures of the, ahem, "white bone" handles in microscopic cross section to allow us to ID the material prior to purchasing it. F

22nd October 2008, 02:31 AM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I would assume that eBay use an automatic 'search engine'....to search for listings using "ivory" in the description/title. I have seen a number of weapons described as having iv*ry.........ivorry ....and ivery ...so either speeling isn't their strong point ( ) or some sellers have the need to hide the 'word' already. It suggests to me that a 'coded' form of 'ivory' will be used. Sellers would want you to know that it was more than 'mere' bone. Only trouble would be that if a dishonest seller gave you the impression (within the listing) using perhaps, the 'coded' word....that a sword was ivory hilted. Only for the buyer to discover that it was bone......you would have no re-dress through paypal for a refund. Plus the fact you would surely have to prove that the 'code work', say, for instance 'white bone', actually meant 'ivory'., if you tried other means to obtain a refund Regards David

22nd October 2008, 01:41 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I have mixed feelings about this. It is far more defensible a decision on ebays part that sooooooo many others they've made. I mean the list is literally endless. The debacle about curved swords and Katanas, whilst continuing to allow millions of 'fantasy' knives when their own rules expressly forbid knives designed for combat. Allowing an endless array of deadly items whilst banning antique guns. No crossbows but bows are Ok, no BB guns but you can buy broadhead hunting arrows. But the question of Ivory.... Well, there is still a thriving trade in China for illegally procured Ivory to supply western markets with faked antiques. Thats a good enough reason to try and stamp it out I think. There's no point in continuing the system as is due to the huge amount of abuse and circumvention. As David says though, it will have to be rigorously policed! On a happy note though, Pesh-Kabz are nicer with stone handles! ;-)

23rd October 2008, 12:53 PM	#8
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	IMHO, the ban on ivory sales in eBay is good news! Being an underwater photographer, I have a heart too for marine animals that are in danger. I think eBay should also ban Giant Manta Ray skins and dugong (asian sea cow) ivory/bone. Nonoy