Early shibriyas revisited

motan · 29th April 2017, 07:25 PM

Hello,
I recently won this lot of old shibriyas on an auction. I bought them mainly for the smallest one which is a neat little dagger of a known type shown in previous threads.
The other two are also early and nice enough, but are not in a very good shape and show multiple repairs. Some pieces are missing too and the middle one has a silver covered Palestinian sheath which is a replacement-the dagger itself is Jordanian. This latter type has also been discussed in a recent thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=Shibriya).
But there was a little bonus too. I hypothesized in this forum that the shibriyas only developed around WWI and the early types, such as the ones below (from a collection of a friend) are from the late 1920' and 1930'. This assumption was based on 2-3 old pictures.
When I cleaned the the largest one, I found a date on the side of the hilt.
I have never seen a shibriya dated to before 1940. This inscription was probably written by an illiterate man as the digit 3 is written backwards, but it can only be interpreted as 1352-1933 in Gregorian calender. So I finally found solid support for my assumption.

A.alnakkas · 30th April 2017, 12:24 AM

Hey Motan,

This is very good. The date is actually 1252 which puts it in 1858. This is quite impressive.

motan · 30th April 2017, 08:49 AM

Hi A.alnakkas, thanks for your response. When I inteprted the date, I assumed that the lowest vertical line on the second digit is part of a strangely written digit 3. I have seen several strange Arabic digits 3 in the past (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=Syrian+dagger for example). However, on better inspection I admit that it could be just a nick-there are several other nicks in the pic. In that case, it should indeed be read as 1252, which corresponds to 1836-7 (not 1852) and that puts the whole question of age of these daggers on very loose ground.
However, I do not believe that this dagger is really from early 19th. I have not seen any pictures of shibriyas from before 1900, although the evidence is very scant. The earliest photographs I have of bedouins from this region that carry a dagger show daggers that are not exactly shibriyas (discussed in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=Shibriyas). The only picture I have of a bedouin with this type of dagger is from the 1930'. So I call the evidence inconclusive and I have to keep searching...

ariel · 11th July 2017, 12:57 AM

Just an eye candy: finished on e-bay

A.alnakkas · 11th July 2017, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Just an eye candy: finished on e-bay

Ariel, sadly this one appears to be a put together piece. The scabbard is Iraqi while the handle is Jordanian (?)

motan · 11th July 2017, 03:47 PM

Hi Ariel,
Thanks for posting this. However, this is a mismatch. The dagger itself is a fairly standard Jordanian shibriya from the 1950' +/-10 years, but the scabbard is Iraqi, belonging either to a Kurdish type dagger (most likely) or a Marsh Arab dagger (see pictures).

Kubur · 14th September 2018, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

However, I do not believe that this dagger is really from early 19th. I have not seen any pictures of shibriyas from before 1900, although the evidence is very scant. .

Hi Motan

I believe alnakas is right and I've seen 19th c. shibriyas.
I think most of yours are 19th c. at least for the second photo...

Best,
Kubur

motan · 15th September 2018, 01:42 PM

Hi Kubur,
I respect your opinion and will be more than happy to find out that I own genuine 19th century shibriyas.
However, the meager evidence I have points against it. Photographs of Bedouin from the area of Jordan and Palestine/Israel and from before WWI show them with daggers that I have not seen anywhere and are certainly not one of the shibriya types known to me. Pictures from after WWI show Bedouin with shybriyas I consider early types. From the many shibriyas I have seen with a date, none has a date from before 1940, and all are later types than those seen in photographs from the 1920's and 30'.
I have written an assay on the history of the Bedouin shibriya and showed it to members of the forum privately, but I feel that I need more evidence to support it. This means that I have to visit friends with large collections and photograph types, dates and any other relevant evidence I can find. Unfortunately, I will not have the time to do that anytime soon. If you have any kind of evidence of shibriyas prior to WWI, please bring it forward. I am more concerned with facts that with being right.

Kubur · 15th September 2018, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Photographs of Bedouin from the area of Jordan and Palestine/Israel and from before WWI show them with daggers that I have not seen anywhere and are certainly not one of the shibriya types known to me.

I agree with you on this point the old shibriya are different, but to me yours are very early 20th or most probably late 19th c. for half of them.
The date on one of them doesnt look wrong to me, why not?
I will post an old one that I have later. But i agree with you the old ones are different, the blades are more curved like the khanjar and the pommels have nice rings...

Best,
Kubur

Kubur · 23rd September 2018, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

From the many shibriyas I have seen with a date, none has a date from before 1940, and all are later types than those seen in photographs from the 1920's and 30'.
I have written an assay on the history of the Bedouin shibriya and showed it to members of the forum privately, .

Hi Motan,
Ok for the dates when they are on the blade, yours is on the scabbard.
Please let me see your essay!
Here is one of the late 19th c. imho, full cooper dress but you have also models more basic with horn grips.
I'll post mine later.

Best,
Kubur

29th April 2017, 07:25 PM	#1
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Early shibriyas revisited Hello, I recently won this lot of old shibriyas on an auction. I bought them mainly for the smallest one which is a neat little dagger of a known type shown in previous threads. The other two are also early and nice enough, but are not in a very good shape and show multiple repairs. Some pieces are missing too and the middle one has a silver covered Palestinian sheath which is a replacement-the dagger itself is Jordanian. This latter type has also been discussed in a recent thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=Shibriya). But there was a little bonus too. I hypothesized in this forum that the shibriyas only developed around WWI and the early types, such as the ones below (from a collection of a friend) are from the late 1920' and 1930'. This assumption was based on 2-3 old pictures. When I cleaned the the largest one, I found a date on the side of the hilt. I have never seen a shibriya dated to before 1940. This inscription was probably written by an illiterate man as the digit 3 is written backwards, but it can only be interpreted as 1352-1933 in Gregorian calender. So I finally found solid support for my assumption. Attached Images

30th April 2017, 08:49 AM	#3
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	To A.alnakkas Hi A.alnakkas, thanks for your response. When I inteprted the date, I assumed that the lowest vertical line on the second digit is part of a strangely written digit 3. I have seen several strange Arabic digits 3 in the past (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=Syrian+dagger for example). However, on better inspection I admit that it could be just a nick-there are several other nicks in the pic. In that case, it should indeed be read as 1252, which corresponds to 1836-7 (not 1852) and that puts the whole question of age of these daggers on very loose ground. However, I do not believe that this dagger is really from early 19th. I have not seen any pictures of shibriyas from before 1900, although the evidence is very scant. The earliest photographs I have of bedouins from this region that carry a dagger show daggers that are not exactly shibriyas (discussed in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=Shibriyas). The only picture I have of a bedouin with this type of dagger is from the 1930'. So I call the evidence inconclusive and I have to keep searching... Attached Images

11th July 2017, 12:57 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just an eye candy: finished on e-bay Attached Images

11th July 2017, 03:47 PM	#6
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Ariel, Thanks for posting this. However, this is a mismatch. The dagger itself is a fairly standard Jordanian shibriya from the 1950' +/-10 years, but the scabbard is Iraqi, belonging either to a Kurdish type dagger (most likely) or a Marsh Arab dagger (see pictures). Attached Images

30th April 2017, 12:24 AM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hey Motan, This is very good. The date is actually 1252 which puts it in 1858. This is quite impressive.

15th September 2018, 01:42 PM	#8
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Kubur, I respect your opinion and will be more than happy to find out that I own genuine 19th century shibriyas. However, the meager evidence I have points against it. Photographs of Bedouin from the area of Jordan and Palestine/Israel and from before WWI show them with daggers that I have not seen anywhere and are certainly not one of the shibriya types known to me. Pictures from after WWI show Bedouin with shybriyas I consider early types. From the many shibriyas I have seen with a date, none has a date from before 1940, and all are later types than those seen in photographs from the 1920's and 30'. I have written an assay on the history of the Bedouin shibriya and showed it to members of the forum privately, but I feel that I need more evidence to support it. This means that I have to visit friends with large collections and photograph types, dates and any other relevant evidence I can find. Unfortunately, I will not have the time to do that anytime soon. If you have any kind of evidence of shibriyas prior to WWI, please bring it forward. I am more concerned with facts that with being right.