Mr. Oakeshott's Sword

Ed · 3rd July 2016, 02:48 AM

I bought this some years ago, as I have been thinning my collection, I have kept it because it really appeals to me in terms of it's appearance and the way it feels in the hand. Take a look.

I wrote to Oakeschiott shortly after I received it and got a very nice letter in reply. He referenced it as follows:

The Archeology of Weapons (1960)
Type XVIII w. side ring ca. 1420-1450
Ill. Plate 20b
pp. 330-331 (Discussion of wear on hilt wrapping)

The Sword in the Age of Chivalry (1964 revised 1981)
Type XVIIIa w. side ring ca. 1400-1425
Ill. Plate 43b
p. 122 (Cross decoration)
p. 132 (Grips)
p. 106 (Pommel)
p. 69 (Blade)

The grip was doeskin when he owned it and he wrote at some length about the patterns of wear on this soft material. Some owner post Oakeschott had the grip recovered with black leather and metal wire. It isn't unattractive but I would have preferred to have it as it was when Oakeschott owned it.

He identified it as a Riding Sword ca. 14th century. It is unclear whether or not it was monkeyed with over the years. Then again, weapons were indeed altered and regripped and rehilted as much as a result of wear and tear as of the impact of current fashion.

In spite of my best efforts, I have been unable to cast any light on the makers marks on the blade.

ulfberth · 4th July 2016, 07:14 AM

Hello Ed,

the sword type is indeed 15th C , could you send me detailed pictures of the blade and the guard ?

kind regards

Ulfberth

Ed · 4th July 2016, 12:42 PM

Here are a couple more. I can take it down and get the others that you'd like later.

There was some discussion about the Pommel being a weight originally. I sorta doubt that.

If you have Oakeschott's books that I referenced, his description is quite good.

ulfberth · 4th July 2016, 05:34 PM

Hi Ed,

The thickness at the beginning of the blade looks a bit unusual for the period, I never seen it before, perhaps other forum members have.
The carvings in the crossguard endings look odd to, perhaps its the picture that is not clear enough, or is the sword covered in varnish ?

kind regards

Ulfberth

Jim McDougall · 4th July 2016, 10:17 PM

This sword is pretty exciting to me, its inherent character alone of course important, but the fact it was one of Mr. Oakeshott's takes it to another level.
On the blade, from what I can find in the Oakeshott refrences, it seems that the built up or incipient ricasso was relatively rare at blade shoulders . While a degree of frequency in this type (XVIIIa) in the 15th c, by the latter part these were remarkably well known, actually few without it ('Chivalry', p.69).

With the pommel, it is termed 'scent stopper' form (T3) and Oakshott notes (p.106) these seem predominantly English (c 1400-40) with this close ribbed fluting on the fundamentally 'pear' shape. It is stated these were less usual after 1430. Here I would suggest that the pommel seems in accord with the guard as homogenous as the striated quillon terminals, fluted pommel and striations on the guard seem en suite.

An interesting note is that while these pommels in this shape and style seem to be keenly English, but that the swords overall often seems to have other Italian characteristics.

As for the notion concerning the pommel as a weight......this is of course one of the commonly held purposes described in the general dynamics of the sword. However, while that seems logical in degree, in many cases there seem to have been other functions allotted to the pommel.....its decorative and aesthetic appeal notwithstanding. In many cases, the pommel was essentially a reliquary, holding religious relics or amulet oriented items.

Pommels seem to have often been exchanged in refurbishings over years or even detached and in cases they are said to have served as weights used with scales etc. Perhaps that might have lead to emphasis on the weight or counterbalance concept.
It seems that Italian arms had a distinct influence on the English arms of the period, as their armourers were broadly pacesetters for this in these times.
With that I might suggest that perhaps the side ring on the guard could be one of these Italianate features, as this appears on many of their swords of the periods noted.

The markings to me seem to resemble either halberds or some type of polearms, and possibly looking toward the esoterica of those marking, which seem to exceed the general corpus of sword makers marks might be useful. In discussion currently in place on halberds, it is noted markings of small halberds occur on one example.
Armourers seem to have been more of a brokerage of various types of arms which often included armor and in some cases even firearms.

Ed · 4th July 2016, 11:17 PM

It was not unusual for blades to be hilted or rehilted in countries far from their manufacture. I sold a two handed court sword whose blade was German and whose hilt was Italian but whose wrapping was Saxon. I'll post it at some point.

A mismatch between hilt and mountings isn't troublesome to me particularly. This sword looks to me as though it had not been taken apart but that could simply be a conceit on my part. I think that it probably is likely that it has undergone 2 or more incarnations.

It reminds me of a Turag bladed English pattern hilted sword that I posted here some time ago, remember that one Jim?

3rd July 2016, 02:48 AM	#1
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 237	Mr. Oakeshott's Sword I bought this some years ago, as I have been thinning my collection, I have kept it because it really appeals to me in terms of it's appearance and the way it feels in the hand. Take a look. I wrote to Oakeschiott shortly after I received it and got a very nice letter in reply. He referenced it as follows: The Archeology of Weapons (1960) Type XVIII w. side ring ca. 1420-1450 Ill. Plate 20b pp. 330-331 (Discussion of wear on hilt wrapping) The Sword in the Age of Chivalry (1964 revised 1981) Type XVIIIa w. side ring ca. 1400-1425 Ill. Plate 43b p. 122 (Cross decoration) p. 132 (Grips) p. 106 (Pommel) p. 69 (Blade) The grip was doeskin when he owned it and he wrote at some length about the patterns of wear on this soft material. Some owner post Oakeschott had the grip recovered with black leather and metal wire. It isn't unattractive but I would have preferred to have it as it was when Oakeschott owned it. He identified it as a Riding Sword ca. 14th century. It is unclear whether or not it was monkeyed with over the years. Then again, weapons were indeed altered and regripped and rehilted as much as a result of wear and tear as of the impact of current fashion. In spite of my best efforts, I have been unable to cast any light on the makers marks on the blade. Attached Images

4th July 2016, 07:14 AM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 400	Hello Ed, the sword type is indeed 15th C , could you send me detailed pictures of the blade and the guard ? kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

4th July 2016, 12:42 PM	#3
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 237	Here are a couple more. I can take it down and get the others that you'd like later. There was some discussion about the Pommel being a weight originally. I sorta doubt that. If you have Oakeschott's books that I referenced, his description is quite good. Attached Images

4th July 2016, 05:34 PM	#4
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 400	Hi Ed, The thickness at the beginning of the blade looks a bit unusual for the period, I never seen it before, perhaps other forum members have. The carvings in the crossguard endings look odd to, perhaps its the picture that is not clear enough, or is the sword covered in varnish ? kind regards Ulfberth

4th July 2016, 10:17 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	This sword is pretty exciting to me, its inherent character alone of course important, but the fact it was one of Mr. Oakeshott's takes it to another level. On the blade, from what I can find in the Oakeshott refrences, it seems that the built up or incipient ricasso was relatively rare at blade shoulders . While a degree of frequency in this type (XVIIIa) in the 15th c, by the latter part these were remarkably well known, actually few without it ('Chivalry', p.69). With the pommel, it is termed 'scent stopper' form (T3) and Oakshott notes (p.106) these seem predominantly English (c 1400-40) with this close ribbed fluting on the fundamentally 'pear' shape. It is stated these were less usual after 1430. Here I would suggest that the pommel seems in accord with the guard as homogenous as the striated quillon terminals, fluted pommel and striations on the guard seem en suite. An interesting note is that while these pommels in this shape and style seem to be keenly English, but that the swords overall often seems to have other Italian characteristics. As for the notion concerning the pommel as a weight......this is of course one of the commonly held purposes described in the general dynamics of the sword. However, while that seems logical in degree, in many cases there seem to have been other functions allotted to the pommel.....its decorative and aesthetic appeal notwithstanding. In many cases, the pommel was essentially a reliquary, holding religious relics or amulet oriented items. Pommels seem to have often been exchanged in refurbishings over years or even detached and in cases they are said to have served as weights used with scales etc. Perhaps that might have lead to emphasis on the weight or counterbalance concept. It seems that Italian arms had a distinct influence on the English arms of the period, as their armourers were broadly pacesetters for this in these times. With that I might suggest that perhaps the side ring on the guard could be one of these Italianate features, as this appears on many of their swords of the periods noted. The markings to me seem to resemble either halberds or some type of polearms, and possibly looking toward the esoterica of those marking, which seem to exceed the general corpus of sword makers marks might be useful. In discussion currently in place on halberds, it is noted markings of small halberds occur on one example. Armourers seem to have been more of a brokerage of various types of arms which often included armor and in some cases even firearms.

4th July 2016, 11:17 PM	#6
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 237	It was not unusual for blades to be hilted or rehilted in countries far from their manufacture. I sold a two handed court sword whose blade was German and whose hilt was Italian but whose wrapping was Saxon. I'll post it at some point. A mismatch between hilt and mountings isn't troublesome to me particularly. This sword looks to me as though it had not been taken apart but that could simply be a conceit on my part. I think that it probably is likely that it has undergone 2 or more incarnations. It reminds me of a Turag bladed English pattern hilted sword that I posted here some time ago, remember that one Jim?