EUROPEAN PISTOL

libra · 7th June 2010, 08:36 AM

Hi everyone

I bought recently this pistol and I want your opinion if it is an antique one or a copy.
It has marks on it 1847 St Etienn.At all parts there are marks "MM" even at the screws.
Thanks a lot.

fernando · 7th June 2010, 03:43 PM

Something worth to analize.
The lock 'might' be French, but the barrel has marks from the Ulm proof house in Germany.
Does the lock reads Etienn instead of Etienne ?. That is very strange

Some other member will comment further?
Fernando

libra · 7th June 2010, 04:28 PM

Hi Fernando.
Thanks a lot for the information about the barrel.
The lock writting is St Etienne but the ''e'' is not visible at the picture that I have provide.
Does this change something?Is the pistol antique or not?
I dont know a lot of things about this item.I just liked it and bought it.Thats why I am looking for informations.
Thanks a lot again for your answer.
All the best.
Aristeidis

fernando · 7th June 2010, 04:48 PM

Hi Aristeidis,
Let's see what other knowledged members say about it.
Judging by the pictures, the stock has a decent look.
But it is highly improbable that the flintlock system was still being made in 1847. This type of pistol was active some eighty years before this date.
Fernando

Jim McDougall · 7th June 2010, 08:44 PM

It cannot be denied this is a very handsome pistol, and with my limited knowledge of guns, I can only note that the St. Etienn inscribed on the lock with date above seems odd. The inscribed 'date' , then the stamped 'date' on the barrel with misaligned numbers seems incongruent.

As Fernando has noted, the 1847 date presumably intended to be a production date seems late for flintlocks, despite the fact that they remained preferred in many regions. In colonial regions such as North Africa, flintlocks and even matchlocks remained in use into the 20th century by tribal peoples, much as they did in Arabia and many other areas.
In frontier America, especially in wilderness areas, the flintlock remained of choice as it was easier to procure powder and fashion ammunition than to obtain percussion cap materials or cartridges in later cases. The flintlock remained somewhat universal in those kinds of situations.

This gun, incongruent as it seems in parts, might have been assembled in a trade situation, perhaps even in America where the St. Etienne guns were known to have arrived in number for trade in areas like St. Louis etc. From its appearance it looks more like an 18th century British gun to me, but I am not as familiar with 18th century French models. The script looks 19th century in style, so perhaps industrious merchant put this together for sale in American frontier? Just optimistic thoughts

kahnjar1 · 8th June 2010, 05:21 AM

The proof marks in my opinion are definately NOT Belgian or French. I believe that the Eagle over the letters SP is the German Black Powder Proof mark used from 1951 onwards. The mark to the extreme right looks remarkably like the ULM Proofhouse mark (an antler) used from the same date. If some other Member has the History of Proof Marks by Mr Lee Kennett, they might like to confirm my thinking. So.................what do we think now about age?
Regards Stu

7th June 2010, 08:36 AM	#1
libra Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: GREECE Patras Posts: 40	EUROPEAN PISTOL Hi everyone I bought recently this pistol and I want your opinion if it is an antique one or a copy. It has marks on it 1847 St Etienn.At all parts there are marks "MM" even at the screws. Thanks a lot. Attached Images

8th June 2010, 05:21 AM	#6
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,731	Maybe not THAT old. The proof marks in my opinion are definately NOT Belgian or French. I believe that the Eagle over the letters SP is the German Black Powder Proof mark used from 1951 onwards. The mark to the extreme right looks remarkably like the ULM Proofhouse mark (an antler) used from the same date. If some other Member has the History of Proof Marks by Mr Lee Kennett, they might like to confirm my thinking. So.................what do we think now about age? Regards Stu

7th June 2010, 03:43 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Something worth to analize. The lock 'might' be French, but the barrel has marks from the Ulm proof house in Germany. Does the lock reads Etienn instead of Etienne ?. That is very strange Some other member will comment further? Fernando

7th June 2010, 04:28 PM	#3
libra Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: GREECE Patras Posts: 40	Hi Fernando. Thanks a lot for the information about the barrel. The lock writting is St Etienne but the ''e'' is not visible at the picture that I have provide. Does this change something?Is the pistol antique or not? I dont know a lot of things about this item.I just liked it and bought it.Thats why I am looking for informations. Thanks a lot again for your answer. All the best. Aristeidis

7th June 2010, 04:48 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Aristeidis, Let's see what other knowledged members say about it. Judging by the pictures, the stock has a decent look. But it is highly improbable that the flintlock system was still being made in 1847. This type of pistol was active some eighty years before this date. Fernando

7th June 2010, 08:44 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	It cannot be denied this is a very handsome pistol, and with my limited knowledge of guns, I can only note that the St. Etienn inscribed on the lock with date above seems odd. The inscribed 'date' , then the stamped 'date' on the barrel with misaligned numbers seems incongruent. As Fernando has noted, the 1847 date presumably intended to be a production date seems late for flintlocks, despite the fact that they remained preferred in many regions. In colonial regions such as North Africa, flintlocks and even matchlocks remained in use into the 20th century by tribal peoples, much as they did in Arabia and many other areas. In frontier America, especially in wilderness areas, the flintlock remained of choice as it was easier to procure powder and fashion ammunition than to obtain percussion cap materials or cartridges in later cases. The flintlock remained somewhat universal in those kinds of situations. This gun, incongruent as it seems in parts, might have been assembled in a trade situation, perhaps even in America where the St. Etienne guns were known to have arrived in number for trade in areas like St. Louis etc. From its appearance it looks more like an 18th century British gun to me, but I am not as familiar with 18th century French models. The script looks 19th century in style, so perhaps industrious merchant put this together for sale in American frontier? Just optimistic thoughts