African sword for I.D. and comment

colin henshaw · 7th April 2009, 05:44 PM

Hi

I have this West African ? cross-cultural sword, that I would like to learn more about. I am interested to identify which elements were made in Europe and which in Africa...

The blade is unmarked, but slight remains of file marks are visible. The guard looks to be a copy ? of a European sword guard. Handle has maybe silver fittings, with simple punched decoration, and the body of the handle itself is made from ivory, with an engraved ring and dot motif.

The scabbard is leather over cloth, with some applied plaited decoration, also simple line decoration.

Could the sword have been partly made-up in Africa from some parts imported from Europe and some native-made perhaps ? That "ring and dot" motif seems pretty universal, even being found on European prehistoric stone-markings.

Comments and opinions would be very welcome.

Regards

Lew · 7th April 2009, 05:51 PM

Scabbard looks Manding and overall a real nice sword.

Congrats

Jim McDougall · 8th April 2009, 03:53 AM

Extremely nice sabre, probably cote d ivoire source, as Lew has noted, Manding type work on scabbard. West Coast Africa sabres like these copying European sabres used well into 20th century...I've even seen certain tribal militia using them within the last 20 yrs. The guard and hilt elements resemble British hangers of latter 18th century.
Norman , exactly right on that circle dot motif, which is indeed known as far back as the temporal geometric symbols in Paleolithic artwork.

Best regards,
Jim

colin henshaw · 8th April 2009, 09:19 AM

Thanks for your comments, Louis & Jim. Would all the sword parts have been made in Africa by native craftsmen, or could the blade, guard and hilt be trade imports ?

Regards
Colin

Jim McDougall · 8th April 2009, 03:11 PM

Hi Colin,
The blade looks relatively modern, and seems entirely flat wedge shaped without fullering or marks apparantly, suggesting native work. The rather roughly done silver components also seem native, as is the ivory grip. The only component I am uncertain on is the guard itself, which appears to be iron and as mentioned, has distinct character of 18th century British swords. The entire sword itself may have been built on an actual heirloom component in these regions from the colonial trade during the 19th century. Most of the hilts I have seen made in European style have been in brass, and do not carry the subtlities usually seen on the originals.

All best regards,
Jim

tribalarms · 8th April 2009, 06:55 PM

I would guess East Africa. I have seen similar carved bone hilts on smaller knifes.

It looks like a local copy of an Ethiopian Imperial Guard sword, but manufactured more south. Interesting.

Jim McDougall · 8th April 2009, 07:10 PM

I've always thought the Ethiopian gurades, which were of course of European style, typically had langets, and these often had the familiar lion of Judah. The idea of further south is interesting but I am presuming regions in one of the Central African countries is suggested other than Kenya.
The idea of ivory being readily available in those regions which were basically a thoroughfare for the trade routes originating in Zanzibar does make sense. These trade routes did continue cross continent into West Africa as well, so even though ivory and bone were not necessarily commonly used in hilts to the west, in singular cases it seems possible. Those extremely familiar circled dots of course are seen across North Africa in many weapons, and are often seen on grips in Central Asia, Balkans, India and not sure how many other of the trade network centers.
The style and scabbard still look west African, but as always, there are many possibilities.

Best regards,
Jim

tribalarms · 8th April 2009, 10:24 PM

I'm not sure if hotlinking is acceptable, but here is an Ethiopian Imperial Guard sword.

The ivory work on the handle is quite similar to other works in bone in the coastal region, including Tanzania. In Tanzania you also have a brittish tie.

It would make sense to make a local copy of an important symbol, traded along the coast. Or, perhaps an Askari connection?

Just guesses, I agree that it also could be west africa, but something points me to the trading routes of the east.

colin henshaw · 9th April 2009, 04:45 PM

Thank you all for your observations on this sword. A bit more detail on the piece is :-

The guard has a mark as per attached image.
The blade thickness near the hilt is about 1/4 inch (per attached image).
The blade was a bit rusty when I got the sword, and I have cleaned it.
The back of the blade towards the tip is bevelled to an edge for about 7 inches.
The sword feels like a real piece for using, and would be a formidable weapon.

Does any of this help in identification ?

Regards
Colin

Tim Simmons · 9th April 2009, 07:42 PM

Now we see a close up of the guard I am inclined to think that it is an African copy. As suggested earlier East African. I also think as already suggested not Ethiopian but further south. The scabbard has a similar look to West African work but is quite different on close inspection. I think somewhere I have pictures of East African knives with the same type of scabbard. The other thought I have had on this piece is the southern Sudan which borders modern day East African countries.

7th April 2009, 05:44 PM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	African sword for I.D. and comment Hi I have this West African ? cross-cultural sword, that I would like to learn more about. I am interested to identify which elements were made in Europe and which in Africa... The blade is unmarked, but slight remains of file marks are visible. The guard looks to be a copy ? of a European sword guard. Handle has maybe silver fittings, with simple punched decoration, and the body of the handle itself is made from ivory, with an engraved ring and dot motif. The scabbard is leather over cloth, with some applied plaited decoration, also simple line decoration. Could the sword have been partly made-up in Africa from some parts imported from Europe and some native-made perhaps ? That "ring and dot" motif seems pretty universal, even being found on European prehistoric stone-markings. Comments and opinions would be very welcome. Regards Attached Images

9th April 2009, 04:45 PM	#9
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Thank you all for your observations on this sword. A bit more detail on the piece is :- The guard has a mark as per attached image. The blade thickness near the hilt is about 1/4 inch (per attached image). The blade was a bit rusty when I got the sword, and I have cleaned it. The back of the blade towards the tip is bevelled to an edge for about 7 inches. The sword feels like a real piece for using, and would be a formidable weapon. Does any of this help in identification ? Regards Colin Attached Images

7th April 2009, 05:51 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Scabbard looks Manding and overall a real nice sword. Congrats

8th April 2009, 03:53 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Extremely nice sabre, probably cote d ivoire source, as Lew has noted, Manding type work on scabbard. West Coast Africa sabres like these copying European sabres used well into 20th century...I've even seen certain tribal militia using them within the last 20 yrs. The guard and hilt elements resemble British hangers of latter 18th century. Norman , exactly right on that circle dot motif, which is indeed known as far back as the temporal geometric symbols in Paleolithic artwork. Best regards, Jim

8th April 2009, 09:19 AM	#4
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Thanks for your comments, Louis & Jim. Would all the sword parts have been made in Africa by native craftsmen, or could the blade, guard and hilt be trade imports ? Regards Colin

8th April 2009, 03:11 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Hi Colin, The blade looks relatively modern, and seems entirely flat wedge shaped without fullering or marks apparantly, suggesting native work. The rather roughly done silver components also seem native, as is the ivory grip. The only component I am uncertain on is the guard itself, which appears to be iron and as mentioned, has distinct character of 18th century British swords. The entire sword itself may have been built on an actual heirloom component in these regions from the colonial trade during the 19th century. Most of the hilts I have seen made in European style have been in brass, and do not carry the subtlities usually seen on the originals. All best regards, Jim

8th April 2009, 06:55 PM	#6
tribalarms Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 26	I would guess East Africa. I have seen similar carved bone hilts on smaller knifes. It looks like a local copy of an Ethiopian Imperial Guard sword, but manufactured more south. Interesting.

8th April 2009, 07:10 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	I've always thought the Ethiopian gurades, which were of course of European style, typically had langets, and these often had the familiar lion of Judah. The idea of further south is interesting but I am presuming regions in one of the Central African countries is suggested other than Kenya. The idea of ivory being readily available in those regions which were basically a thoroughfare for the trade routes originating in Zanzibar does make sense. These trade routes did continue cross continent into West Africa as well, so even though ivory and bone were not necessarily commonly used in hilts to the west, in singular cases it seems possible. Those extremely familiar circled dots of course are seen across North Africa in many weapons, and are often seen on grips in Central Asia, Balkans, India and not sure how many other of the trade network centers. The style and scabbard still look west African, but as always, there are many possibilities. Best regards, Jim

8th April 2009, 10:24 PM	#8
tribalarms Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 26	I'm not sure if hotlinking is acceptable, but here is an Ethiopian Imperial Guard sword. The ivory work on the handle is quite similar to other works in bone in the coastal region, including Tanzania. In Tanzania you also have a brittish tie. It would make sense to make a local copy of an important symbol, traded along the coast. Or, perhaps an Askari connection? Just guesses, I agree that it also could be west africa, but something points me to the trading routes of the east.

9th April 2009, 07:42 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Now we see a close up of the guard I am inclined to think that it is an African copy. As suggested earlier East African. I also think as already suggested not Ethiopian but further south. The scabbard has a similar look to West African work but is quite different on close inspection. I think somewhere I have pictures of East African knives with the same type of scabbard. The other thought I have had on this piece is the southern Sudan which borders modern day East African countries.