The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

4th November 2007, 07:56 PM

Posted by:

Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Early makers trade marks

It is well known that often one of the key elements in studying ethnographic edged weapons is that of the trade blades often found mounted in them. I have tried using our search feature to research certain established markings often found on a number of these, but feel that it might be a more effective resource if we began a thread with discussion focused on known markings.

I am hoping we can focus for example on the 'running wolf' of Passau, which evolved into forms stamped in the blades of Styria, Solingen and eventually in the Hounslow blades and Shotley Bridge blades of German makers in England.
There is an especially interesting chart on the chronological development of this mark in Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons") ...could anyone with this book please post? Also there is I believe a note on the marking in Oakeshott ("Archaeology of Weapons"). ...also please post anyone?
Also, I believe the running wolf in Chechen blades is termed 'Ters Maymal' (check Askhabov, "Chechen Weapons").

Other key examples would be the 'sickle', 'eyelash' markings associated with Genoan blades. These evolved also via Genoan colonies into Styria, Solingen and Chechnya (where they are termed 'gurda', see Askhabov again). These occur almost consistantly on examples of Afghan paluoars, and on trade blades in many regions.

The familiar 'Andrea Ferara' seen in the fullers of various straight blades of 17th-18th century seen on Scottish basket hilts, English mortuary swords, khanda 'ferangi' in India and others. Any examples of this appearing on trade blades would be essential. While often held by early writers to have been the purloined name of an early Italian swordsmith that became used over centuries as with the Islamic Assad Adullah marking, it has been suggested that rather than a name it is actually a term. Ferara (=iron) Andrea (=true, ?)
Much as in the term Eisenhauer on many German blades (Eisen = iron) (hauer=cutter).
Sahugun, on early Spanish blades..name of maker? or place?

The talismanic blades of the 18th century....the man in the moon, the human faced sun and the star ....what is the application of these astral figures? These are widely copied on native blades, especially in the Sudan and the Sahara. We need examples of the European blades as well as the native mounted ones.

'The Spanish Motto', do not draw me without reason, nor sheath me without honor. This occurs in about mid 18th century, and while associated with Spanish blades of the period, it turns out these blades, typically Spanish dragoon blades c. 1769 were actually produced in Solingen.

These are what seem to comprise the most commonly encountered markings on blades associated with trade and ethnographic weapons. I hope that anyone so inclined will quote and address any of these examples so that we might all benefit from discussion focused on them and the topic in general.
The comprehensive research resources and outstanding examples in the collections of the members and readers here is well established, and I would very much like to see these employed in a useful resource for us all.

Thank you in advance everyone!

With all very best regards,

Jim

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[fernando]

Posted by:

Rich

Member
Join Date: Dec 2004


Here are some early Italian makers marks.

Rich S

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[fernando]

Posted by:

Fernando



Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
'The Spanish Motto', do not draw me without reason, nor sheath me without honor. This occurs in about mid 18th century, and while associated with Spanish blades of the period, it turns out these blades, typically Spanish dragoon blades c. 1769 were actually produced in Solingen.[/QUOTE]

Hi Jim
This Motto is much older than that.
In the collection of the Portuguese Viscount of Pindela, published in 1946, swords #35 and #39 bear this Motto. These sords are dated XVI century.
This is a very serious (rare) publication (which i luckily have), sponsored by the State. The collection was kept in the family's Mannor house, where it was catalogued, and was later sold to the State, due to the family's financial situation. It is now in exhibition in one of the National Palaces.
Hpe this is usefull.
Fernando

[fernando]

Old 4th November 2007, 10:56 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 5,748

Thanks so much Rich and Fernando for getting things rolling!!!
The Italian marks are great Rich.....I had a copy of the huge volume "Armi Bianchi Italiene" which I wish I had access to....these Italian marks are very important as the Italians were quite prominant traders that diffused immense numbers of blades.

Thank you for the input on that motto Fernando....I knew it was older than the popularly applied examples on those dragoon blades but did not know where or how early. The transliterated versions appeared also on French and Italian blades as well during the 18th century, and in the case of the Italian examples probably much earlier due to contact with the Portuguese I would imagine.

[fernando]

Old 4th November 2007, 11:02 PM

Posted by:
fernando

Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 5,219

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
I am hoping we can focus for example on the 'running wolf' of Passau, which evolved into forms stamped in the blades of Styria, Solingen and eventually in the Hounslow blades and Shotley Bridge blades of German makers in England.

Hi again,
Jim

The running wolf ( Lobo de Passau ) is quoted to be engraved, together with the number 1441 ( one of the various combinations of magic number 7 ) in a XVI century Portuguese Colonial ( crab ) sword, depicted in page 64 of "Homens Espadas e Tomates, a book you also have. It appears that these trade blades were supplied at the time to Portugal and ( if i remember reading ) also Spain.
If needed, some evolution on the magic number seven can be posted.
Fernando

[fernando]

Old 4th November 2007, 11:09 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D

Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 491

Hi Jim,

Here is Pg. 109 of Wagner's Cut and Thrust Weapons .

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[dralin23]

Hi there,
i found some days ago an intresting indian Patasword with an narrow european Blade. at both sides from these blade are tradestamps or makersmarks without an name. have someone an idea from where these blade comes or in with time these blade was made?
unusual for me is that it is an narrow blade , only 25 mm wide.
i never saw before such an narrow blade in an pata sword. but i think that it is an old marriage and only an idiot did sharpened the edges with an grindling machine. i think that the blade wasn´t changed in its shape.
i´m curious about your opinions!

[dralin23]

here are some pictures from an other pata sword ..,
these blade is marked with an running wolve and some letters.
i wonder how was these letters read? are these letters only symbols, or religius characters?
also intresting is if the running wolve was in an wrong direction stitched?
i asked in the solingen sword museum in the hope that they could tell me something more about the history from these blade but i received only a short answer that it is an solingen blade from the 17.th.ct. they couldn´t tell me something over the sinn from these letters.
have someone an better idea?
i don´t believe that it is an indian blade with wrong marks, but the indian swordmaking history is full of surprices.

[fernando]

The marks on your blade are one of the various misspelled initials of "In Nomine Domini" and would mean " In the name of the Lord (God)", an ancient Catholic expression; actually the title of a Papal Bull in the year 1050. You often find this in European blades; a subject also often discussed here in the forum-

[dralin23]

hello fernando,
thank you for these information!
I also thought it that way when I read the letters on the blade. but if i read this combination of letters like this then the running wolf would have been hit the wrong way round in the blade. so he would be lying on his back. the other way around, the letters would make no sense. the running wolf also looks authentically real to me and not like it was hit afterwards. we can only speculate about why and why.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by dralin23

hello fernando,
thank you for these information!
I also thought it that way when I read the letters on the blade. but if i read this combination of letters like this then the running wolf would have been hit the wrong way round in the blade. so he would be lying on his back. the other way around, the letters would make no sense. the running wolf also looks authentically real to me and not like it was hit afterwards. we can only speculate about why and why.

Supposedly when the blade smiths of Solingen put the wolf of Passau on the blades, they put them upside down compared to any text. So the wolf mark on your blade shows it’s made in Solingen. It’s beautiful.

[dralin23]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Supposedly when the blade smiths of Solingen put the wolf of Passau on the blades, they put them upside down compared to any text. So the wolf mark on your blade shows it’s made in Solingen. It’s beautiful.

hi,
this is new for me and very intresting!!
where you have read it?